I feel like both religion and atheism has benefits.
I personally am an atheist (well.. more agnostic/not-religious I suppose), but I feel like religion has a very good purpose in society and that infact it is crucial for human survival (at the moment at least).
Going into what HoG said with regards to atheists in the past who have done atrocious things, I don't think it counts as a "sect" of atheism. Theres a sense of intellectual enlightenment when you stop believing in religion as a whole since most if not all of them have some outdated morals / ethics as they dont apply to modern times. However, if you are uneducated, or generally dont have morals, then religion is vital for the survival of society.
Example: I know people who have told me that the ONLY reason they will not do act X is because of religion, i.e. they themselves don't have a problem with it. Taken in the broader sense, if an individual feels like there is no true purpose for his life, or that his shitty current life wont become better when he dies (and goes to heaven), and so he might as well steal and kill people because what does it matter, no one's going to judge him -- then religion really is for that person. He will conform to the rules of society and try to be a better person (not because its the right thing to do, but because he has the hope of being rewarded for his actions later).
So here religion is used similarly to how you train animals to perform tricks in exchange for treats. You tell the uneducated to behave and be good, and that they will be rewarded with rivers of honey or what not. And I don't mean this to be insulting to people who believe in religion, I am just stating my view that for the mass public that isn't that educated and don't have the morals to not do "evil" unless there is an omnipotent police force recording all their actions, religion is vital here. On top of this, it gives people hope when their current lives are shitty, and that is a pretty powerful thing too.
And I also agree with you HOG that religion has definitely played a role in our culture, and our culture has played a role in developing our morals. Religion brings with it some good ethics for people to follow, but that doesn't mean religion needs to be true as a whole. And religions that were spawned in history had a positive impact to their time in that it brought about a moral revolution to some sorts (albeit followed by wars in the name of said religion).
But I disagree with you that people in the past who were Atheists and decided to use this lack-of-omnipotent-policeforce as an excuse to massacre anyone who didn't believe them were representative of what Atheism does to society. It could be an example of what Atheists that don't have a moral compass do, and I would agree there. I feel like even in todays world there are mostly two types of atheists. Theres the people who analyze religion, and decide that they do not agree with it, who realize that they want to do the right thing because its the right thing to do, not because someones watching them, and that the idea of "someone" doesn't really make sense using the scientific model and so they reject the idea of God(s) because there is no evidence. Then theres the people who don't want to believe in God because they want to YOLO life, and so I feel like this ties into your argument about historic atheists and how they have done horrible things: they would fall into the second category -- which is being an Atheist AND having a shitty moral compass.
#1521264 by tidus (Power User) at 2013-02-16 19:04:32 (5 months ago) - [Report]
hOG wrote:
I think the only answers that would have satisfied you would have been your own. Since I do think for myself I happen to like my answers. Now that I have complied with your wishes, why don't you comply with mine? Like again you participate in the topics you create, which means with actual on-topic stuff and less of the personal attacking.
"Is atheism good for a human"? Or is it bad? How was that answered at the debate night you went to? If you went... Can you answer the question yourself, i.e. present facts and thoughts of your own as I did by bringing up atheism in history? You identify yourself as an atheist, presumably, then lets hear from you, the topic starter, why it is that atheism is good for humans.
I do not think Atheism is bad for the human race, i think it is smart thing to start your life with. I would say its healthy for a human to be and to think like an atheist. I relate better to humanist and/or freethinker, but to the majority of the population I'm an atheist. Anyway, I think at the very least, if there were more atheists in the world we would be a lot smarter as a whole and further along in regards to progression as a race. So, could you imagine where we would be if we didn't waste so much time catering to all the religions?
Something about golden rule being universal moral concept on the 2nd page.
While I'm sorry to be digging I just cannot let this go. Golden rule is in no way universal as G.B.Shaw said
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules."
Something about golden rule being universal moral concept on the 2nd page.
While I'm sorry to be digging I just cannot let this go. Golden rule is in no way universal as G.B.Shaw said
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules."
(also I'm sorry if I'm repeating somebody, did skim through the thread tho)
Didn't even saw that post about golden rule, I would have demolished it earlier.
Thanks for bringing it up, otherwise sixshooter might think he had made a good post with a good argument. Which it naturally wasn't.
Quote:
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
If I am in a state of mind where I want to die, how does that work here ?
Also It doesn't work when we as society are punishing people who have broken the ruels of society.
And for example it would be just plain stupid to treat your enemy as you would like yourself to be treaten.
There are no unerversal concepts of morals, period.
Also, golden rule is no way bound to religion, it's been there long before the religions started to use it.
#1521351 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-17 17:33:16 (5 months ago) - [Report]
tidus wrote:
So, could you imagine where we would be if we didn't waste so much time catering to all the religions?
Yes, I could because I have read about it and linked to it in this thread. "In the 70s ..." E.g.:
The Albanian Constitution of 1976 wrote:
The vital forces of the people were freed and their inexhaustible creative energies burst out. In the unceasing process of the revolution the Albanian woman won equality in all fields, became a great social force, and is advancing towards her complete emancipation. Education and culture have become the property of the broad masses of the people, and science and knowledge have been placed at the service of society. The foundations of religious obscurantism were smashed. The moral figure of the working man, his consciousness, and world outlook, are moulded on the basis of the proletarian ideology, which has become the dominant ideology.
...
The waging of the class struggle in favour of socialism, the continuous strengthening of the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the deepening of socialist democracy, the development of the productive forces and the perfecting of socialist relations of production, the steady raising of the wellbeing of the working masses, the gradual narrowing of distinctions between industry and agriculture, town and country, mental and physical labour, the affirmation of the personality of man within the socialist collectivity, the mastering of contemporary technology and science, the continuous revolutionization of the entire life of the country, are the main ways through which the socialist society is growing stronger and advancing.
Article 34
The state organizes and directs the development of science and technology in close connection with life and production in the service of the progress of society and defence of the homeland.
The state supports the dissemination of scientific knowledge among the masses and drawing them extensively into scientific research activity.
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.
Article 55
The creation of any type of organization of a fascist, anti-democratic, religious, and anti-socialist character is prohibited.
Fascist, anti-democratic, religious, war-mongering, and anti-socialist activities and propaganda, as well as the incitement of national and racial hatred are prohibited.
Article 65
The right of sanctuary in the People's Socialist Republic of Albania is granted to foreign citizens who are persecuted on account of their activity in favour of the revolution and socialism, of democracy and national liberation, or the progress of science and culture.
We can imagine all the technological utopias based on atheist or areligious societies we like, but we would still be able to see from history actual and not imagined examples of such societies.
We can imagine all the technological utopias based on atheist or areligious societies we like, but we would still be able to see from history actual and not imagined examples of such societies.
Well, in former communist countries it was the system as whole which was not working, it's pretty one sided to say that the reason for the failure of communism was the lack of religion.
And we talk about using force in the case of albania and soviet union.
If all the atheists in the world would form a country of their own, It wouldn't be albania or soviet union, it would be the most technologically advanced country where human rights and freedoms would be at the highest on this earth. It would be the best civilization ever.
#1521360 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-17 19:47:35 (5 months ago) - [Report]
@Sniper
Quote:
Well, in former communist countries it was the system as whole which was not working, it's pretty one sided to say that the reason for the failure of communism was the lack of religion.
It would be one sided, agree.
Quote:
And we talk about using force in the case of albania and soviet union.
Yes, we are talking about using force. Hence 'militant atheists'.. three main categories, weak, strong and militant atheism.
Quote:
If all the atheists in the world would form a country of their own, It wouldn't be albania or soviet union, it would be the most technologically advanced country where human rights and freedoms would be at the highest on this earth. It would be the best civilization ever.
To say that there was no religion in soviet society is bullshit. People weren't allowed to be religious, but I know many, many people who were just that - celebrating Christmas(even though if they had got caught they'd probably be dead) and believing in the so called lord and savior + his dad + some ghost(0o?). Besides there's no real way to make a stubborn and unintelligent person see that there probably is no god. And in most cases it's not that harmful, but harmful nonetheless.
If all the atheists in the world would form a country of their own, It wouldn't be albania or soviet union, it would be the most technologically advanced country where human rights and freedoms would be at the highest on this earth. It would be the best civilization ever.
... and the winner is... China.
China is comprised 50% of atheist/agnostics and 40% of folk religion. Those 40% are not really serious with their religion since this is based more on traditions (and symbols) and they have thousands of gods.
Are you trying to come up with the most atheistic country in the world? That would either be Sweden or Estonia depending on a source. But then again there's a fuck load of people who believe in spirits and goblins and shit like that so it's practically the same - pick your superstition.
If all the atheists in the world would form a country of their own, It wouldn't be albania or soviet union, it would be the most technologically advanced country where human rights and freedoms would be at the highest on this earth. It would be the best civilization ever.
... and the winner is... China.
China is comprised 50% of atheist/agnostics and 40% of folk religion. Those 40% are not really serious with their religion since this is based more on traditions and they have thousands of gods.
China is very politically motivated (where the politics they do are comparatible to a religion) + your numbers suck monkey balls.
According to study made 2010, 85% of people have somekind of religious conviction (even they teach atheism and anti superstition stuff in their schools). Only 15% are atheists/agnostics.
Finally to say that they are not serious because they have thousands of gods is something I don't understand. How do you know that by the number of gods ?
Quote:
To say that there was no religion in soviet society is bullshit. People weren't allowed to be religious, but I know many, many people who were just that
True, they even used to smuggle bibles to soviet union here in finland.
Quote:
Besides there's no real way to make a stubborn and unintelligent person see that there probably is no god. And in most cases it's not that harmful, but harmful nonetheless.
Indeed, if the belief is based on faith (no evidence aka good reason), evidence base argumentation is useless, since that person clearly don't value evidence.
Then there are people like william lane graig who wouldn't believe that jesus was not risen from death even he would be able to visit the tomb and see himself that the body is still there on tuesday. Thats because in his words the holy spirit has told him the truth and it is the truth no matter what.
Quote:
But then again there's a fuck load of people who believe in spirits and goblins and shit like that so it's practically the same - pick your superstition.
True, when I was talking about atheist country upper I should have added sceptic reasonable atheists, there are plenty of atheists who believe in all kind of other shit (new age shit mainly, but traditional shit too, like horoscopes,and alternative medicine etc.).
#1521381 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-17 23:09:37 (5 months ago) - [Report]
DrouGluiN wrote:
To say that there was no religion in soviet society is bullshit.
To say that would indeed be bullshit. Religion is main enemy in the view of militant atheism, but even in power they were unable to abolish religion no matter the methods they used, e.g. closed down religious buildings, economic sanctions, blackmail, forced labor, propagandized atheism, murder..
Are you trying to come up with the most atheistic country in the world? That would either be Sweden or Estonia depending on a source. But then again there's a fuck load of people who believe in spirits and goblins and shit like that so it's practically the same - pick your superstition.
Atheist in China count 6.6% of the world population. I think is easier to move from a religion to atheism than other way around, specially when that religion is not pretty convincing.
#1521424 by tidus (Power User) at 2013-02-18 17:14:00 (5 months ago) - [Report]
hOG wrote:
tidus wrote:
So, could you imagine where we would be if we didn't waste so much time catering to all the religions?
Yes, I could because I have read about it and linked to it in this thread. "In the 70s ..." E.g.:
The Albanian Constitution of 1976 wrote:
The vital forces of the people were freed and their inexhaustible creative energies burst out. In the unceasing process of the revolution the Albanian woman won equality in all fields, became a great social force, and is advancing towards her complete emancipation. Education and culture have become the property of the broad masses of the people, and science and knowledge have been placed at the service of society. The foundations of religious obscurantism were smashed. The moral figure of the working man, his consciousness, and world outlook, are moulded on the basis of the proletarian ideology, which has become the dominant ideology.
...
The waging of the class struggle in favour of socialism, the continuous strengthening of the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the deepening of socialist democracy, the development of the productive forces and the perfecting of socialist relations of production, the steady raising of the wellbeing of the working masses, the gradual narrowing of distinctions between industry and agriculture, town and country, mental and physical labour, the affirmation of the personality of man within the socialist collectivity, the mastering of contemporary technology and science, the continuous revolutionization of the entire life of the country, are the main ways through which the socialist society is growing stronger and advancing.
Article 34
The state organizes and directs the development of science and technology in close connection with life and production in the service of the progress of society and defence of the homeland.
The state supports the dissemination of scientific knowledge among the masses and drawing them extensively into scientific research activity.
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.
Article 55
The creation of any type of organization of a fascist, anti-democratic, religious, and anti-socialist character is prohibited.
Fascist, anti-democratic, religious, war-mongering, and anti-socialist activities and propaganda, as well as the incitement of national and racial hatred are prohibited.
Article 65
The right of sanctuary in the People's Socialist Republic of Albania is granted to foreign citizens who are persecuted on account of their activity in favour of the revolution and socialism, of democracy and national liberation, or the progress of science and culture.
We can imagine all the technological utopias based on atheist or areligious societies we like, but we would still be able to see from history actual and not imagined examples of such societies.
Well,well that is the best of you that you can say ? Seriously hOG ?
World would turn in to Albania in the time of Enver ?
#1521428 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-18 17:46:47 (5 months ago) - [Report]
@tidus
Seriously, tidus.
You asked if I "could ... imagine where we would be if we didn't waste so much time catering to all the religions?". We can imagine all sorts of things. But I think it is an advantage to use history. By pointing to the history of Albania, written into their constitution is the idea of letting go of religion and its obscurantism (wasting time..) to pursue "science and culture". They imagined it as well for their nation. But the consequences..
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(User) at 2013-02-16 15:36:21 (5 months ago) - [
