I was shocked to learn today that some countries(like Germany) actually have a 'religious tax' that gets collected from citizens paychecks after taxes..
#1498995 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-24 20:28:54 (10 months ago) - [Report]
warduke wrote:
I was shocked to learn today that some countries(like Germany) actually have a 'religious tax' that gets collected from citizens paychecks after taxes..
Add the nordic countries to that list who each in their own way support religion particular the evangelical-lutheran one. You think of us secular, think again.
#1498996 by unknown[81460] at 2012-09-24 20:31:03 (10 months ago) - [Report]
I seriously hope none of my tax payment go to bible thumpers
Yep, if you belong to church as individual you are taxed directly from your salary. I don't belong to church (neither missus) so we save over thousand euros / year (which we can then spend on sinning).
Firms and companies etc. all are taxed and from that sum a percentage is delt to church.
So if I as an atheits have a firm, I am forced to pay money to the church, not directly but indirectly.
From that money the church also has responsibilities, like burying people etc.
I want my atheist ass put down on the best place on our local semetary.
"He didn't believe but got the first row place, think about it suckers" is the text in my tombstone.
#1499006 by unknown[81460] at 2012-09-24 21:00:51 (10 months ago) - [Report]
If it turns out that in the UK my tax money in a way goes to religion then I will contend it and start writing letters etc. How dare someone else assume my beliefs! To me thats against my human rights
Add the nordic countries to that list who each in their own way support religion particular the evangelical-lutheran one. You think of us secular, think again.
I think of us as secular. .... Now I am thinking again....
I still think we are secular.
In fact.. Let me think for a second time .... Done..... I now know that we are extremely secular. Anyone saying anything else is fooling himself.
Irreligion by country. - Please check Sweden and then all the other nordic countries. We are all in the top. Most people are added by birth to the swedish church because your parents are members.., and you can leave whenever you want.
And what sniperfin said is true, but we also pay for mosques and other non-christian activity that are "sponsored by the state" , such as muslim burial, buddhist burial..etc... all paid for by us.
The swedish church simply administers some of these tasks..
#1499014 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-24 21:33:31 (10 months ago) - [Report]
dodeliatcha wrote:
In fact.. Let me think for a second time .... Done..... I now know that we are extremely secular. Anyone saying anything else is fooling himself.
Irreligion by country. - Please check Sweden and then all the other nordic countries. We are all in the top. Most people are added by birth to the swedish church because your parents are members.., and you can leave whenever you want.
I can give you a link to a scandinavian sociologist of religion who would argue the exact opposite. That we are not so secular as people would like to believe. And if you think about that it is true. Statistics also show a different picture when it comes to baptism, confirmation, church marriage, etc. Very high numbers for them. State church relationships are deeply intertwined for historical reasons.
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And what sniperfin said is true, but we also pay for mosques and other non-christian activity that are "sponsored by the state" , such as muslim burial, buddhist burial..etc... all paid for by us.
The swedish church simply administers some of these tasks..
Which is why I mentioned that the state supports religion in various ways. In Sweden religious organisations can get support from the government if they meet certain requirements. That means Swedish tax dollars to support x, y and z religion exceeding 3000 members.
We are totally secular societies, the church has nothing to say on legistlation,education,social policy, you name it, the only thing it can affect is things inside the church and those have to follow the normal laws set by the representives of people.
Ofcourse individual believes have some affect on the policy, for example our current internal minister is a religious nutjob (really is, she thinks that you can be gay if you don't live a gay life and have gay thoughts and shit like that), and during her time she has been much harder towards muslims than the previous one. She even has said that we should prefer christian immigrants instead of muslims.
And as an opposite example the cultural minister is a leftist (and atheist) who has been cutting funds from religious youth organizations which have religious views on gays and lesbians.
But in general, religion has no place in decision making, so we are indeed as secular as you can be.
Religous traditions however are rooted very deeply, but in general religion is something we finns don't talk about much, it is seen as personal stuff. Therefore atheists have been tolerated very well here for a long time.
If it turns out that in the UK my tax money in a way goes to religion then I will contend it and start writing letters etc. How dare someone else assume my beliefs! To me thats against my human rights
Dont worry BoB your tax money is safe, in the UK the church gets it money from donations fees for weddings etc. and the billions of pounds in investments, holdings and property they own.
But they dont pay any tax themselves on their earnings or profits.
Catholic boarding school ‘torture’ on thousands of children uncovered in Switzerland
Thousands of children fell victim to violence and abuse in Catholic boarding schools in Switzerland up until the 1970s, according to a recent study decrying “sadistic” practices resembling “torture”.
“There was always this incredible fear, fear, fear, fear,” recalled a former student of a Catholic boarding school in the German-speaking central Swiss canton of Lucerne.
The former student, whose name was not given, was one of around 50 former boarders at 15 different boarding schools in Lucerne between 1930 and 1970 who in chilling detail testified to their experiences in a report ordered by the canton.
And now we just wait for the religious "excuse people" to come in and post their typicall bullshit.
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I remember you criticizing religion for not being based on evidence.
How much evidence do you need ? Every kid in the world must have been abused before you accept the fact that catholic church is a global criminal organization ?
Here you see the difference.Police in a hunt seeking and turning every stone when it's about non religious monsters.
oh my bad only 30 so far. I didn't know that there was some minimum requirement for you to consider that just maybe these abuse cases have more to do with institutional powers protecting their interests and the mindset of that era and less to do with what religion they happen to be.
I was not undermining the case, but in this context (in this thread) the usage of massive was just too obvious trick to be overlooked.
And yes, I agree, it's the institutional powers protecting their interests here and in catholic church too, but the reasons for child abuse in catholic church are much more complicated as pointed out earlier.
The twisted view of sexuality (selibat with no marriage + women and men separated as good as possible) is one big part of it. Supressed sexual needs are forfilled with the nearest and easiest target, kids. Who are easy to manipulate with fear and god.
The case amount with catholic church is so huge (every country, in real massive numbers) and the common thing binding all is religion that it just can't be bypassed, it would be intellectually dishonest.
Most pedofile gangs cought here in europe in recent years have been ordinary people from all the positions in the society, so institutional powers among non catholic pedofiles is not the common binder.
I agree that if we find such rings in every broadcasting company there is (like we find with catholic church), then we can draw some conclusions.
Edit:
Ofcourse the power hierarchy (how the church is built using certain hiearchy) also is one reason.
But that is also part of the religion (especially catholic church).
One-fifth of the U.S. public — and a third of adults under 30 — are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling.
In the last five years alone, the unaffiliated have increased from just over 15 percent to just under 20 percent of all U.S. adults.
Their ranks now include more than 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics (nearly 6 percent of the U.S. public), as well as nearly 33 million people who say they have no particular religious affiliation (14 percent).
Slowly but steadily the americans are evolving and getting back to the level of europeans which they originally were. Unfortunately just like with australia,it was the low intellectual part which left europe and both continets wll need some time to catch up.
#1501401 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-10-10 22:50:22 (9 months ago) - [Report]
It's people like this who could bring peace to the world:
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Eric Lomax, a former British soldier who was tortured by the Japanese while he was a prisoner during World War II and half a century later forgave one of his tormentors — an experience he recounted in a memoir, “The Railway Man” — died on Monday in Berwick-upon-Tweed, England. He was 93.
“At the end of the war, I would have been happy to murder him,” Mr. Lomax told The New York Times in 1995, shortly after the “The Railway Man” was published and became a best seller.
In the book, Mr. Lomax described having fantasies about meeting Mr. Nagase one day and how he had spent much of the 1980s looking for information about him. He learned that after the war Mr. Nagase had become an interpreter for the Allies and helped locate thousands of graves and mass burial sites along the Burma Railway.
The men finally met in 1993, after Mr. Lomax had read an article about Mr. Nagase’s being devastated by guilt over his treatment of one particular British soldier. Mr. Lomax realized that he was that soldier.
“When we met, Nagase greeted me with a formal bow,” Mr. Lomax said on the Web site of the Forgiveness Project, a British group that seeks to bring together victims and perpetrators of crimes. “I took his hand and said in Japanese, ‘Good morning, Mr. Nagase, how are you?’ He was trembling and crying, and he said over and over again: ‘I am so sorry, so very sorry.’ ”
Mr. Lomax continued: “I had come with no sympathy for this man, and yet Nagase, through his complete humility, turned this around. In the days that followed we spent a lot of time together, talking and laughing.” He added, “We promised to keep in touch and have remained friends ever since.”
better man than me, but I guess if I lived through that hell I would probably be more likely to forgive those who were simply cruel and those who were murderous if that makes any sense.
According to the recearch published today, only 21% believe in god (1999 it was 47%, which means heavy decline, very nice drop in 13 years).
And whats most important the future adults/leaders are even more bright, only 15% of people between 15-24 said they believe in god.
Nice to see that my crops bring a nice harvester.
According to the recearch published today, only 21% believe in god (1999 it was 47%, which means heavy decline, very nice drop in 13 years).
And whats most important the future adults/leaders are even more bright, only 15% of people between 15-24 said they believe in god.
Nice to see that my crops bring a nice harvester.
how many of that 21% are Muslims? Not really a bright "future" if you end up simply replacing Christianity with Islam in Finland.
#1503297 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-10-23 15:14:10 (9 months ago) - [Report]
According to the recearch published today, only 21% believe in god (1999 it was 47%, which means heavy decline, very nice drop in 13 years).
And whats most important the future adults/leaders are even more bright, only 15% of people between 15-24 said they believe in god.
Nice to see that my crops bring a nice harvester.
According to the translate - it is 27% that believe in God. And 21% that do not. Even so, it is a drop (1999-2012) that doesn't compare with neighboring countries. Much like the previous link you gave its incomplete. Where is the rest of the data, I'm interested
According to the recearch published today, only 21% believe in god (1999 it was 47%, which means heavy decline, very nice drop in 13 years).
And whats most important the future adults/leaders are even more bright, only 15% of people between 15-24 said they believe in god.
Nice to see that my crops bring a nice harvester.
how many of that 21% are Muslims? Not really a bright "future" if you end up simply replacing Christianity with Islam in Finland.
Muslims believe in god. And the amount of muslims in finland is pretty small ,50-60k aka 1% of population.
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According to the translate - it is 27% that believe in God. And 21% that do not. Even so, it is a drop (1999-2012) that doesn't compare with neighboring countries. Much like the previous link you gave its incomplete. Where is the rest of the data, I'm interested
Yeah got it wrong way, but still it's great number and the direction is right.
The data is in a book, published today (video is about the book releasing event), the video (which is in finnish, is about the book "haastettu kirkko" which translated to "challenged church" and bishop commenting it, he admits that the church is in chrisis and losing members rapidly due various reasons) explains it much more closely.
I'll send you more information when I get it.
The study (book is a study) is made by the finnish church (the recreach center of finnish evangelist lutherian church) it's about the state of church 2008-2011.
#1503314 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-10-23 17:00:00 (9 months ago) - [Report]
Thanks a bunch for the link! I'm going to find the smoking gun and blow you out of the water
I am willing to bet you that what you interpret as the atheist number (21%) has not experienced a similar increase as the supposed drop. Like with the previous link non-religious affiliation should not be interpreted as anti-religious, in fact pew research institute specifically pointed out that the number was lower (the atheist %).
It is a step in the wrong direction for the Finnish Lutheran Church who in sharp contest with the evangelical and orthodox churches in your country over members.
I'm familiar with the study. The Danish church does this study as well (if you want as well I can find it for you; I think last time was 2009 so next time is 2013?) and there are always a number of options if I remember correctly. Most tend to answer yes, they do believe in God or that they believe in some sort of spiritual way. If you go down to the specifics then things really begin to drop. Fewer believe in the Resurrection and even fewer in the Virgin Birth. I think it is something like 34% and 16% respectively.
/edit: page 41 in the link was interesting and shows a stable religious identification of the Finns as well as a strong increase of Finns that identify themselves as spiritual or humanists. Only 13% identify themselves as atheists. It is the "Nones" that explain the 'drop' both in Finland and the US (http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/no … -rise.aspx). People simply move away from doctrinal churches to lesser ones or simply opt not to have a religious affiliation at all, but still maintain a spiritual connection.
Like with the previous link non-religious affiliation should not be interpreted as anti-religious,
True, maybe more like indifferent, which is fine by me for the starters.
First indifference, then total annihilation.
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Only 13% identify themselves as atheists.
Imo thats because people don't really know what an atheist is.
For many it's antireligious (this has been the case when I have talked with eldery people who don't believe in god, but when I say that they are atheists then, they don't agree. Also same with in many finnish forums and younger people, who don't believe in god but rather describe themselves as agnostics).
I don't mind, as long as they are not religious and support organized religion.
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strong increase of Finns that identify themselves as spiritual or humanists
Unfortunate new age shit.
Edit:
All the news considering church always peek the stats on how many people have left the church.
This news lifted the percentage by 50%.
We have a site where you can leave the church via net and it keeps all kind of stats.
Red is today, dotted is estimate and grays are yesterday and day before (how many persons left the church).
If you are interested, you can check the stats here:
http://www.eroakirkosta.fi/static/ek-tilastot/ As you can see year 2010 was a peek, thats when we had many gay right debates on tv and it caused a mass leave, in one month over 40k people left due 3 tv debates where our religiou minister talked shit.
#1503450 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-10-24 17:02:12 (9 months ago) - [Report]
@Sniper
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True, maybe more like indifferent, which is fine by me for the starters.
First indifference, then total annihilation.
Of course. It is fine for both of us, because we are both inclined towards mission. Indifference just means 'undecided', can I get an amen.
It is not entirely about indifference when it comes to no religious affiliation. According to the pew link "the term “nones” is often used to describe people who indicate in surveys that "they have no religion or do not belong to any particular religion". If you want to apply the term "Nones" to the Finnish survey we were talking about (p.41) then you have to talk about atheists, agnostics, seekers (? - Etsijä), spiritual inclined (Henkinen ihminen), believer (Uskova), liberal believer (Usk. liberaali), etc. etc. and that is not counting the political or cultural identifications such as humanist or irreligious (Uskonnoton ihminen).
In fact it is interesting to see that the seeker group is almost as large as the atheist/agnostic combined. A group which if I understand it correctly comes closes to the 'Nones' definition and has grown more than the atheist (and agnostic group?). Or that more people in your country identify themselves as Lutherans rather than as Christians (even though that is second). That would never be the case in my country and shows the strong influence of the Lutheran church in your country. Impressive.
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Imo thats because people don't really know what an atheist is.
For many it's antireligious (this has been the case when I have talked with eldery people who don't believe in god, but when I say that they are atheists then, they don't agree. Also same with in many finnish forums and younger people, who don't believe in god but rather describe themselves as agnostics).
I don't mind, as long as they are not religious and support organized religion.
You are the epitome of an angry middleaged educated white atheist. Why is it so strange the people who you talk to should get any other impression of atheism that it is aggressive and wants the total annihilation of religion? In fact you have called yourself anti-religious many times while defending atheism as did the atheist popularizer Hitchens. These elderly people could belong in any of the categories I've mentioned above from the survey.
Do you really want me to believe that you, on account of what you have written again and again on these forums against and connected to religion, that you don't mind people standing on the fence? It is eating your ass up fool
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All the news considering church always peek the stats on how many people have left the church.
This news lifted the percentage by 50%.
We have a site where you can leave the church via net and it keeps all kind of stats.
...
Red is today, dotted is estimate and grays are yesterday and day before (how many persons left the church).
If you are interested, you can check the stats here:
http://www.eroakirkosta.fi/static/ek-tilastot/ As you can see year 2010 was a peek, thats when we had many gay right debates on tv and it caused a mass leave, in one month over 40k people left due 3 tv debates where our religiou minister talked shit.
The same happens in my country. Here whenever news run over controversial issues there is usually a larger amount of people who leave the church. If they leave for another church with lesser or stricter views or if they give up their religious identification completely is hard to tell. Here however it has never been over 1% of people who has left over a year and is, if I remember correctly, more around 0.1-2% per year who do actually leave - around 12k people annually there was at one point. But the church doesn't just loose members, people sign up again and there are immigrants (who have no religious affiliation or a different affiliation - we have around 200.000 Muslim immigrants) to take into consideration.
(Power User) at 2012-09-24 20:14:48 (10 months ago) - [
(Power User) at 2012-09-24 23:12:15 (10 months ago) - [
