(You have no problem describing the Evangelical-Lutheran church as secular and thus liberal and you see that there can be no connection at all between my viewpoints and theirs???)
It has to be in those areas where it must obay secular laws, otherwise they would be in trouble.
The fact still is that they baptize babies (you are forced to join a club where you have to participate in mumbo jumbo rituals etc.).
Also it's an institution which promotes a worldview which is not supported by evidence.
It's a good thing that the secular,humanistic and scientific set of values have brought them kicking and screaming to this century, but in the end the foundation still stays rotten.
You can put a candle and whipcream over a spiral chaped dogshit and say that it is a cake.
It's not, it's still dogshit,it's not suitable for eating even it is easier to look.
#1496552 by Germs (Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2012-09-06 16:45:15 (10 months ago) - [Report]
Hell no,religion doesn't even bring peace to our forums
#1496561 by unknown[81460] at 2012-09-06 17:23:51 (10 months ago) - [Report]
John E. Remsburg wrote:
"The name of Christ has caused more persecutions, wars, and miseries than any other name has caused."
The total number of deaths estimated to lie at the feet of humanity's poor practice of Christianity is approximately 17 million
That to me sums it up, so the next fukin Mormin or Jahovis Biscuit that chaps my door is getting a swift kick in the balls for him to pass on to Jesus!
#1496563 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-06 17:27:58 (10 months ago) - [Report]
John E. Remsburg died before WW2 and before the build up of the Soviet Empire and Maoist states in Asia. If you cut away greed, persuit of power and money, land and riches til you end up with a name you are sure to find someone to blame.
#1496565 by unknown[81460] at 2012-09-06 17:47:44 (10 months ago) - [Report]
hOG wrote:
If you cut away greed, persuit of power and money, land and riches.................
............then there would be no more religion hierarchy.
#1496570 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-06 18:09:00 (10 months ago) - [Report]
BoB wrote:
hOG wrote:
If you cut away greed, persuit of power and money, land and riches.................
............then there would be no more religion hierarchy.
And your country has cut the knot between government and the sort of religious hierarchy that is based on these things quite a few times in your history.
#1496573 by unknown[81460] at 2012-09-06 18:19:29 (10 months ago) - [Report]
AFAIK religion still factors massively in the running of the UK and the problems in the UK, we are having issues just now in Northern Ireland caused by opposing factions Protestant and Catholic.
For me if I was playing the word association game I would answer the word religion with:
Greed
Social Control
Hypocrisy
War
Hate
Those are my opinions though and I respect others who have faith, I don't believe in it but that's my own views.
#1496587 by tokol (Sarcastic Admin) at 2012-09-06 19:40:02 (10 months ago) - [Report]
VeryBadGuy wrote:
Timex wrote:
What like censorship when people bring up a thought and others are not welcome to comment upon such?
no more like constant forum rule breaking
Actually no, More like the same thread repeated over and over and over and over and over again with yet another new thread.
It is almost the same exact posts thread in and thread out!
What like censorship when people bring up a thought and others are not welcome to comment upon such?
no more like constant forum rule breaking
Actually no, More like the same thread repeated over and over and over and over and over again with yet another new thread.
It is almost the same exact posts thread in and thread out!
no thread with even a hint of religion can be complete without it turning into a Sniper vs Hog quoteathon.
#1496657 by tokol (Sarcastic Admin) at 2012-09-07 04:40:35 (10 months ago) - [Report]
Well, that too is getting a bit old, but at least that is the more and less on topic stuff; the worst part is that each thread gets the same exact offtopics as well, which would be the part that classes as rule breaking.
I guess this post would fit the bill, too, but at least I don't need to be vary of Guy.
Post #1496432 starts to sum the OT part pretty well. There is more to that, but since no one else started to make noise when the matter was brought up I guess they figured those parts out by themselves and there is no point on bringing more of that up.
Dog, stick, barking, how did that go...
Like I said, it'd be darn interesting to see how a "thread like this" would go when those half-a-dozen-to-dozen people whose arguments, deflections and offtopics everyone that has been around for three or so weeks knows by heart would just opt not to post.
The Roman Catholic Church in the Australian state of Victoria has confirmed that more than 600 children have been sexually abused by its priests since the 1930s.
The Archbishop of Melbourne, Denis Hart, described the figures as "horrific and shameful".
They were released in a submission to a state parliamentary inquiry into the handling of abuse cases.
Campaigners say the true number of abuse victims could be up to 10,000.
I wonder when they will bring this institution of child abuse and pedofiles to court and label it as an criminal organization ? Mafia and drug organizations atleast have some moral values, these guys have none.
If religion would not be involved this organization would had been labeled as a pedofile ring long ago, but since jesus is part of the gand, they have beenallowed to continue their abuse for centuries.
A perfect example why everybody should not only be atheist, but also anti theist supporting the total destruction of organized religions.
@hOG, if atheists were partly responsible for shit in soviet union (as you like to say), then you are partly responsible for the rapes of these kids, you perhpas didn't penetrate the tiny ass, but you wanked the priest so he got the hard on, as a figure of speech.
The funny thing is that always when they are cought they describe it shamefull and horrible, while when it was happening they tried to cover it. The same person who is now giving these statements was wiping the sperm from the faces of those kids (also a figure of speech) when they were abused. Scum of the earth.
I wonder when they will bring this institution of child abuse and pedofiles to court and label it as an criminal organization ? Mafia and drug organizations atleast have some moral values, these guys have none.
If religion would not be involved this organization would had been labeled as a pedofile ring long ago, but since jesus is part of the gand, they have beenallowed to continue their abuse for centuries.
A perfect example why everybody should not only be atheist, but also anti theist supporting the total destruction of organized religions..
I dont think that it is a fair conclusion to base it strictly on religion. I think it has much more to do with the mindset of the times when this sort of crime would be swept under the carpet and was probably happening with equal frequency in every occupation that involves unrestricted access to children that attracts the pedophile (i.e. teaching, counselors, etc)
Fuck it. They represent themselves as representives of god (hope,salation,moral values, you name it) and have such an authoritarian position over the people that this is more than a fair conclusion.
This has been so common among the catholic church (every fucking country) that there must have been tons of church people who have known abou it. And FUCKING no one was so true believer that he/she rather than protected the church (when instructed by higher church representives, or were in the position to either instruct or reveal) protected the people and the principles of his/her faith. There was no faith there, it was only business, a business for abusing people (getting their money and their kids ass).
Total scam where people thought that with divine protection they are untouchable.
It ridiculous to compare to teachers etc. Ofcourse there were also cases with them, but this is totally a different scale, this is world wide abuse committed by one organization, systematic abuse with systematic and organized covering.
With catholic church we count the victims in hundreds of thousnads if not in millions.
It's like comparing occupy the wall street demonstrations to demonstrations in middle esst today.
Yeah, both are demonstrating, but thats the only similarity between them.
With catholic church we count the victims in hundreds of thousnads if not in millions.
I remember you criticizing religion for not being based on evidence. Looking at your arguments, I'd argue that you should be the first facilitating objectivity instead of giving us perception-based figures. That aside, I tend to agree with several others in this thread that blaming child abuse in religious institutions entirely on religion seems short-sighted. I would argue that instances of child abuse in religious or public institutions are very well comparable. The authoritative position allowing people to abuse their societal role seems to be the same across the board. It doesn't matter if it is a teacher or a priest, the main feature is the same. Now, just because according to your argument, which you failed to back, the scale of abuse is higher in religious institutions, the comparison cannot be regarded as disqualified.
It ridiculous to compare to teachers etc. Ofcourse there were also cases with them, but this is totally a different scale, this is world wide abuse committed by one organization, systematic abuse with systematic and organized covering.
With catholic church we count the victims in hundreds of thousnads if not in millions.
It's like comparing occupy the wall street demonstrations to demonstrations in middle esst today.
Yeah, both are demonstrating, but thats the only similarity between them.
you are just getting more front page articles on the church as the face of child abuse which makes it seem like it was disproportional to them. I'm sure if investigators next turn their focus onto the public school systems they will start to turn up and equal percentage of cases relative to the church and administrators who hid the abuse, look no further than at Penn State where this was going down.
blaming child abuse in religious institutions entirely on religion seems short-sighted
Perhaps the abuse itself can't be entirely on religion (although the selibat thing is one key cause and it is religion based), but the cover up is entirely religions fault.
The reason for covering up was entirely because they wanted to keep up the front, that religion is something holy, pure, something which gives us morals etc.
Quote:
The authoritative position allowing people to abuse their societal role seems to be the same across the board.
True, but we are not talking about individuals, but the authoritarian position of the organization (in this case the catholic church).
Similar thing would be that the whole police organization (lead from the top) would cover up gops who abuse their powers (shooting people instead of arresting etc.).
Or that the ministry of teaching (the whole organization involved with education) would cover up teachers who have abused children.
Those can't be compared to for example cases where individual bosses use their authotarian position to for example when they harras female empyers or indivudual teachers who abuse.
The magnitude is just from another planet.
You both seem to forget that this is institutional behaviour where the whole institution knows whats going on and instead of doing something they cover it up.
A robber is can't be compared to a mafia gang, that just don't flow.
Thats why there are laws which concern organized criminality, which differ from laws concerning individual criminality.
Quote:
Now, just because according to your argument, which you failed to back
Do the math. 10k cases (estimated) in one australian state, similar figures in every catholic country in europe.
Then we have the whole south america and north america.
Clearly it is hundreds of thousands atleast,when south america numbers are revealed and the house is really cleaned in europe and usa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
Quote:
I'm sure if investigators next turn their focus onto the public school systems they will start to turn up and equal percentage of cases relative to the church and administrators
Im sure just don't flow. Before you have proof, you have nothing.
I counter with I'm sure that it would not be the case and we are left with the facts which only point to catholic churches organized abuse and cover operation.
I'm sure if investigators next turn their focus onto the public school systems they will start to turn up and equal percentage of cases relative to the church and administrators
Im sure just don't flow. Before you have proof, you have nothing.
I counter with I'm sure that it would not be the case and we are left with the facts which only point to catholic churches organized abuse and cover operation.
a quick google turned up a plethora of articles of out of control sexual abuse in public schools by teachers, including this...
Everyone knows that male kindergarten teacher is the number one pedophile occupation.
I think as a parent any job where a man is in charge of looking over children should raise eyebrows whether it be teacher, priest, or coach especially if they don't have their own children involved in the activity.
a quick google turned up a plethora of articles of out of control sexual abuse in public schools by teachers, including this...
AP: Sexual Misconduct Plagues US Schools
your focus on the church is centered around your hatred of religion.
Which still is lightyears away from internationally organized abuse and cover up by an international organization.
You guys can keep up defending the known abuses with your "I'll bet there is similar things happening everywheer" speeches, I won't. Until there is evidence for such organized abuse and cover up by teachers, or what ever other group, I'll keep calling out those who actually have been caught and are revealed (the catholic church) and then when your "I'll bet" group is revealed to be similary harmfull, I'll add them to my shit list too, not before.
Quote:
Everyone knows that male kindergarten teacher is the number one pedophile occupation.
Thats not the point. The point is that it was organized pedophilia with organized cover up with the catholic church.
Quote:
your focus on the church is centered around your hatred of religion.
They represent themselves as hope and salvation, the holders of moral values and so on, it's much worse than somebody who is just mentally sich (pedofile) abusing kids when a organization like that does it and covers it up.
I would also like to know how the fact that there are other abusers too makes the churches case less evil and bad ?
Shouldn't it be critisized because of that ?
Or what is your point in your argument ?
Quote:
I think as a parent any job where a man is in charge of looking over children should raise eyebrows whether it be teacher, priest, or coach
What ?
By your logic, every wife should suspect that her husband might be abusing their children if he is alone with them.
Women abuse kids as much as men, we should rise our eyebrowns all the time if we wanna have the sex as our reason.
#1498790 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-23 17:01:17 (10 months ago) - [Report]
Vulgarity incarnate wrote:
@hOG, if atheists were partly responsible for shit in soviet union (as you like to say), then you are partly responsible for the rapes of these kids, you perhpas didn't penetrate the tiny ass, but you wanked the priest so he got the hard on, as a figure of speech.
And what a lovely figure of speech that is..
As a Christian I am partly responsible for the rape of these kids, because I wanked the priest so he got the hard on.
Whaat? Even if this is to be understood figuratively how does it translate exactly? It doesn't make any sense what so ever. I am not a Roman-catholic, I do not know any of these priests, etc.
I like to say that you are as an atheist partly responsible for the "shit" in the soviet union.
I don't think I have said that, but maybe I have come close to saying that. Basically it is like this. Every time some ignorant uneducated hick from the I-is-proud-to-be-atheist-man crowd argues from populist memes he loses, because history proves that the table can be easily turned. Eg. "religion (=Christianity) is the root of all evil just look at the crusades, the Salem witch trials, creationism, rape of kids...". All right then as this person argues fallaciously (defective induction), I'll do so in turn, by arguing tu quoque: Under Hitler, under Lenin's regime, under Stalin, under Mao, under Hoxha, etc. wide religious persecutions occurred. So if I am party responsible for these kids being raped you are partly responsible for atheists persecuting religious folk. It is not something that "I like to say" it is something history like to say. In the Soviet Union the "party of the militant godless" propagandized and killed in the name of their atheism. Either someone accepts that atheists and atheist driven regimes can become violent, corrupt dictatorships or one becomes an apologists for the claim that atheism is not more than the "absence of belief".
I am perfectly willing to look at institutional Christianity as a flawed religion. In fact I will claim that Christianity itself claims that it is flawed, but that is another discussion.
The difference between protestants, like you and me, and then the Roman-Catholic Church is that it believes in the institutional church and we do not. We believe in the invisible church (corpus mixtum), free from the earthly hierarchy of Rome. They believe in the apostolic succession of St. Peter, for protestants there are to be no intermediary between the believer and God. When it comes to these child abuse cases that has implications.
It is embarrassing for an institution, which sees itself as a God's representative on Earth, to find itself in this situation, where its "men of God" violate, abuse and corrupt the children of God. I do believe that that those priest, bishops, and so on in the RCC, who find out really do want to stop it, but the RCC' understanding of itself as THE institution, as explained above, have damaging implications, and this overshadows their good intentions; they just refuse to do what is right and Christian, when they find out. Better to hide it and sort it out by moving the problem elsewhere. But the problem is still there. It's disgusting and wrong.
Another thing is the question of cause. The question is if pedophiles seek out institutions where they have access to kids, or if the priests themselves become abusive over time, because they are denied a sex-life (clerical celibacy). I think that people who suppress what is natural, sex, over a long period of time become wrong in the head. In the protestant church priests are free to marry and divorce and enjoy sex, just as ordinary Catholics do, but the RCC priests do not. It makes a difference, you rarely hear about abuse cases in protestant churches. Also, it is difficult to advance in the hierarchy. If your intention is to get close to kids by becoming a RC priest it will take years. In the Nordic state protestant churches the education of priests are even longer, with harder requirements as they take place in the universities and they take almost as long as the education of doctors. So if your motivation is "abuse kids" you have to go through a lot of barriers. Here in my country anyone working with kids, including priests, are run through the offender list first. A good thing to prevent that. I am not sure Catholic priests are.
Regardless, the RCC has severe problems both with its understanding of itself and with its requirements for the priests. But what has happened now with the RCC in Australia coming out and willing to cooperate is a good thing. I hope they cooperate to the full extent, so this can be fully uncovered and measures implemented to prevent this. Best of all, a complete reform of their practices as described above.
My point was to underline that I as an atheist am not responsible for what happened in soviet union and you are not responsible for the acts of these priests.
From our previous discussions I had the feeling that I should somehow feel guilty of what happened in soviet union because they were atheists who also had another ideology (which I don't share).
The difference is that atheism is not an ideology as theism is and for example even you are not catholic,you are christian and you share the christ aspect with them.
But I know your position on this one, you are not a silent christian, you are not afraid to critisize them and thus you have no bone in this soup. I just love to give you a hard time though and couldn't spice up the convo a bit with my lovely figures of speeches However there are many who are christians (and even catholics) who don't critisize them and that I see unforgivable.
The rest of your post I mostly agree.
When talking about catholic church one must not forget their alliance with nazis (during the time of the nazi power) and how they after the war also helped tons of nazi war criminals to south america, providing them with false passports and hiding them in exchange of money,jewels,art etc. all stolen from jews. The rat lines.
Many criminals were also kept in monesters in europe and the last ones were captured in the 80-90's hiding their asses under the umbrella of catholic church.
Similar hiding also happened after the balkan war in 90's.
The organization is just totally rotten from the core to the top.
When talking about catholic church one must not forget their alliance with nazis (during the time of the nazi power) and how they after the war also helped tons of nazi war criminals to south america, providing them with false passports and hiding them in exchange of money,jewels,art etc. all stolen from jews. The rat lines.
Many criminals were also kept in monesters in europe and the last ones were captured in the 80-90's hiding their asses under the umbrella of catholic church.
Similar hiding also happened after the balkan war in 90's.
The organization is just totally rotten from the core to the top.
One thing that should be noted is that it was a much different period of time. As to the religion being the
problem, i see it as the people who confuse the truth. The people are the problem
not the religion. If you want to quote texts;, firstly understand that the text you quote are from people
whom spend hours deciphering something they know nothing of. Even if you spent your life in the midst
of the violence of any war or any aggression, the senses/emotions would still confuse everything. One of
the biggest lies is that religion is a problem .. To say this is too forget that "PEOPLE" are responsible
for their actions and how we read into something.. looking inward to see how something will make you
feel is the only truth.
If you have no faith, you trust in nothing. I do feel for those who think morals have no use. When we say "the moral of the story" i am referencing the right and wrong, which in principle is my religion.
Change is inevitable and over the thousands of years, the human race has always and will always twist
what is right and wrong for their own purposes. If we could get past the blame game i am pretty secure in thinking that we might all find goodness in our hearts.
One thing that should be noted is that it was a much different period of time.
Really ?
One thing that should be noted is that the catholic church has always represented itself as gods voice in the world.
Also there were men and women on those different times who did the right thing and many of them died for those deeds. They stood by their values and didn't sell them in fear and greed.
Catholic church did.
There are no excuses for that.
Quote:
One of
the biggest lies is that religion is a problem
Nope, its the absolute truth. Religion is something which can make perfectly good and ordinary people do evil and bad things. Like stoning their own kids or abandoing them, the examples are numerous.
Ofcourse there is also personal responsibility too, but in the pressure of a community many people surrender and follow the crew.
It's like blaming the people of north korea for their misery. They were born there, they were brainwashed by the system and opressed by the system and are constantly monitored and feeded by the system, it would be arrogant for us to blame an individual for his/hers ignorance and leave the system out.
Religion is an institution which courages faith instead of reasoning and thats always a disgrace if you are talking about finding the truth.
Organized religions are parasites eating up humanity and progress, they should be extreminated as soon as possible and forgot as ridiculous myths we in our ignorance once valued.
#1498988 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2012-09-24 20:05:31 (10 months ago) - [Report]
sniperfin wrote:
Organized religions are parasites eating up humanity and progress, they should be extreminated as soon as possible and forgot as ridiculous myths we in our ignorance once valued.
Wise words, Glorious Leader
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(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2012-09-06 16:45:15 (10 months ago) - [
(Sarcastic Admin) at 2012-09-06 19:40:02 (10 months ago) - [
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