Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1525673 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-03-23 17:30:35 (4 months ago) - [Report]

Arnemes wrote:

TheBlues wrote:

But the dividing of the passengers was not okay. The point was that he assumed that every foreign looking person was troublemaking snus-buyer and every non-swede was not.

Thought it was the opposite? sorry, must've misread. In that case, you are correct.

Oh wait, I mistyped that sentence. It's supposed to be "The point was that he assumed that every foreign looking person was troublemaking snus-buyer and every swede was not."

Sorry for the confusion.

sniperfin wrote:

You have lost the debate (we have all the facts and arguments behind us), therefore you have to rely on "bating" (I don't believe that you were bating, you were encouraged by bob's post and you wrote in anger, now you regret your stupid post and try to excuse it, cause it makes you look like an idiot).

I guess you're right about that, not that I've lost the debate but that I was pretty angry. I'd had a bad day and felt like venting a bit, but the part about you not replying to my posts on immigration lately is still true though. You post rather strong statements against immigrants, then I criticize you and start weaseling your way out of it or just avoid replying at all. But yeah, it wasn't me at my most brilliant moment but I wasn't sober either.

sniperfin wrote:

But I feel for you, you come from immigration backgound and you have muslim relatives, ofcourse you have to try speak for both groups, since your encounters with both groups (like hOG earlier said, you come from a priviledged muslim background) is something else what the reality is.
You are blindfolded by bias and you refuse to see the world outside your comfort bubble.

One correction first, I don't come from the kind of privileged background that hOG spoke about. But yeah, it's true that I have to deal with identifying with a culture that will never truly be recognized as my culture due to the color of my skin. I will always be a child of two worlds who doesn't really belong in either one of them.
But am I significantly biased?
I don't think so, not compared to you or hOG in any case. I mean really sniper, your statement that the catholic and orthodox church does less damage to Europe compared to Islam is factually ludicrous when you look at eastern and middle Europe. I sometimes can't even believe how you can say shit like that without realizing that those thoughts are a product of a propaganda campaign.

Last edited by TheBlues at 2013-03-23 17:34:28

#1526021 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-03-26 15:55:22 (4 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

I don't think so, not compared to you or hOG in any case. I mean really sniper, your statement that the catholic and orthodox church does less damage to Europe compared to Islam is factually ludicrous when you look at eastern and middle Europe. I sometimes can't even believe how you can say shit like that without realizing that those thoughts are a product of a propaganda campaign.

Today that is the case, ofcourse if we talk about history, then the catholic church is undoubtable numero uno.
And if we talk about scandinavia, then it's even more clear, the christian church here is so tamed that it's just funny when we compare them for example to christians in USA.

But on the subject ( I know, it's daily fail, but the article is worth reading though):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ation.html

Quote:

SATURDAY ESSAY: Why we on the Left made an epic mistake on immigration

Among Left-leaning ‘Hampstead’ liberals like me, there has long been what you might call a ‘discrimination assumption’ when it comes to the highly charged issue of immigration.

Our instinctive reaction has been that Britain is a relentlessly racist country bent on thwarting the lives of ethnic minorities, that the only decent policy is to throw open our doors to all and that those with doubts about how we run our multi-racial society are guilty of prejudice.

And that view — echoed in Whitehall, Westminster and town halls around the country — has been the prevailing ideology, setting the tone for the immigration debate.
But for some years, this has troubled me and, gradually, I have changed my mind.

Over 18 months of touring the country to talk to people about their lives for a new book, I have discovered minority Britons thriving more than many liberals suppose possible. But I also saw the mess of division and conflict we have got ourselves into in other places.

I am now convinced that public opinion is right and Britain has had too much immigration too quickly.

For 30 years, the Left has blinded itself with sentiment about diversity. But we got it wrong.

I still believe that large-scale immigration has made Britain livelier and more dynamic than it would otherwise have been. I believe, too, that this country is significantly less racist than it once was.

....

Glad to see that some people have the guts to admit their mistake.

#1526023 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-03-26 16:19:31 (4 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Left-leaning ‘Hampstead’ liberals

Is this really a definition of a left winged (liberal)? I mean sure Karl Marx is resting there amongst other left-winged radicals that is surrounding him but every time I've walked up Hampstead Heath on my way to visit him I never thought about Hampstead as a very left-winged area. Always thought of the area in the class of Maida Vale, Lidingö or Bell air.

But sure I could see how it could attract a crowd that is left winged still. Maybe a bit hipster idiot know nothing about anything and has escaped East end.

#1527109 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-04-05 15:50:07 (3 months ago) - [Report]

Finally some encouraging stuff, looks like these young immigrant men have been integrated to our finnish culture, although it's our infamous drinking culture, it's still a good start.

#1527324 by tidus (Power User) at 2013-04-07 19:06:47 (3 months ago) - [Report]

the don't work right? and its too cold to play basketball ...sooo drinking is best choice

btw tomorrow is the international gypsy day, they are the bigger problem in this multiculturalism europe thing.

#1531444 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-05-20 18:34:39 (2 months ago) - [Report]

http://www.sudinfo.be/726092/article/ac … -musulmane

Quote:

45% of Belgian prisons inmates are Muslim

In some prisons the muslim rate is over 80% and they don't serve pork as meal there anymore.
I quess that can be called cultural transformation.

Translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate?s … -musulmane

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-05-20 18:48:52

#1531555 by wezzeyy (Power User) at 2013-05-21 14:58:51 (2 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.sudinfo.be/726092/article/actualite/belgique/2013-05-17/45-des-detenus-des-prisons-belges-sont-de-confession-musulmane

Quote:

45% of Belgian prisons inmates are Muslim

Wait.. Other countries keep stats over what race/religion their criminals are?
It's illegal to keep statistics like that in Sweden because that would be racism (ofc)

Last edited by wezzeyy at 2013-05-21 15:00:35

#1531762 by lol2k345 Donor

(Power User) at 2013-05-22 19:07:31 (2 months ago) - [Report]

People forget what the word racism means, and when politicians do that, its time to throw them out.

#1532253 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-05-26 20:51:51 (2 months ago) - [Report]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … rl-13.html

Quote:

A muslim who raped a 13-year-old girl he groomed on Facebook has been spared a prison sentence after a judge heard he went to an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless.

Adil Rashid, 18, claimed he was not aware that it was illegal for him to have sex with the girl because his education left him ignorant of British law.

Yesterday Judge Michael Stokes handed Rashid a suspended sentence, saying: ‘Although chronologically 18, it is quite clear from the reports that you are very naive and immature when it comes to sexual matters.’

-Hey judge, I didn't know that taking a car from the parking lot is not illega !
- Aah, in that case, this session is over and you are dismissed, have a nice day.
-Thanks and bye

United arabic Kingdom.

#1532258 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-05-26 21:25:43 (2 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html

Quote:

I wonder what the sentence would have been had it been the judges daughter that was raped. This coddling of criminals and dissidents is getting out of hand.

#1532271 by Timex (Power User) at 2013-05-26 23:35:52 (2 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

ignorant of British law.

That won't get you off the hook in court here.

Last edited by Timex at 2013-05-26 23:36:15

#1532459 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-05-29 08:50:52 (2 months ago) - [Report]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ … LY20130528

Quote:

(Reuters) - Close to half the staff managers at companies in French urban areas have seen problems arising from religious demands by employees and expect them to increase in future, according to a new study issued on Tuesday.

Listing faith-related problems, the new study said some men refused to take orders from a woman boss or shake hands with women and some refused to handle alcohol or pork products.

Sociologists say most religious demands at work come from the large Muslim minority, with some also from orthodox Jews and evangelical Christians.

I recon it's only the extreme muslims who are causing these problems :hmmm:

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-05-29 08:52:20

#1532465 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-05-29 11:18:09 (1 month ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/28/us-france-religion-work-idUSBRE94R0LY20130528

Quote:

I recon it's only the extreme muslims who are causing these problems :hmmm:

Extreme muslims do other stuff besides rave about islam and the devil that is the west?

#1532822 by tidus (Power User) at 2013-06-06 11:10:47 (1 month ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

45% of Belgian prisons inmates are Muslim

That is so true, i lived in Belgium for a year..and i remember when i talk with some guys and the say to me 50% are all Muslims from Balkan, Africa, turkey etc Morocco....

#1532940 by Waswat Donor

(Power User) at 2013-06-07 11:45:01 (1 month ago) - [Report]

As a Bosnian who has fled the war, I am pretty sad to see all the crap spouted at muslims in this thread. If immigration were up to some of you, I would probably not even be alive at this point. Christians might be tame where you are sniperfin, but they certainly weren't where I was born.

Last edited by Waswat at 2013-06-07 11:46:47

#1532944 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-06-07 12:28:29 (1 month ago) - [Report]

Waswat wrote:

If I might ask, you seem to be muslim yes? Have you integrated with society where you live? Have you managed to bend so that you fit in with what the norm is/was where you went? How about your family and others like you?

I'm trying to get my mind around the thinking of such immigrants. Also most of the muslim types discussed here are the ones coming from Africa and the deep red muslim middle east (at least thats my take on this).

#1532947 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-06-07 12:51:19 (1 month ago) - [Report]

Waswat wrote:

And that kind of humanitarian help (where we take people whos lives are in a real danger) is something everybody is for (excluding the recist who think that people of different cultures and colors should not mix at all).
In the balkan war it was much more than religion vs religion thing (although religion played a role too, but it was much more than that alone. Nationalism and old shit played a vital role too).
And yes, christians can be bad too, take the catholic church for example, which in my mind is the largest criminal organization there is today.

But the fact is that most of the muslim immigrants today come from africa and middle-east, and they won't integrate to our societies, only handfull.
Here in finland people from balkan have integrated well, they have jobs, they don't suppress their women, they go along with us native finns etc. It shows that when you really come from hell, you appriciate the help you have got and you act according to it (also the culture with european muslims is much different than the culture of african/middle-eastern muslims).
They have been living in europe for centuries and have been living in countries where islam has not been the ruling force, they are much more secular, that helps alot.

#1532958 by Waswat Donor

(Power User) at 2013-06-07 13:32:23 (1 month ago) - [Report]

mrunne wrote:

Waswat wrote:

Yes. Yes. Yes and no (1). To a certain point (2).

(1)
I'm a Bosnian muslim, living in the Netherlands. My Dutch is better than most Dutch people and I consider my English to be decent. I have tons of Dutch friends, very few Bosnian friends.

However, I still have my own tradition. My own values. My own ideals.

I do not eat bread and cheese every morning. I dislike liqorice. Herring isn't special for me. We don't have cats or dogs. We offer more than just "tea or coffee" to our guests. (Usually we even ask them if they want to stay for dinner. Yes, that's a cultural thing.) I don't watch football. I don't try to skate on ice whenever it's possible. Etc. Etc.

These are, of course, stereotypes and not every Dutch person follows them. Yet it is what defines a culture.
Just like you, I have my own identity which in lots of cases just differs from the so-called norm.

(2)
This is all very easy for me and my brother, but difficult for my parents. Why? Because of the generational gap. If you have ever migrated to another country as an adult, you'll know that there are tons of issues you'll struggle with. First there's the language barrier. Then there's the cultural barrier. You're forced to break old habits. You have lots of financial uncertainties and philosophical differences of opinion. Some minor issues even persist because you're never told about them.
Here's a small example:
In the Netherlands it's common courtesy to pick up the phone and state your name so the caller knows who is on the line.
However in our culture it's more common to say "Yes?" or "Hello?" without stating your name. This is because it's similar to someone knocking on the door. When you open that door, you expect for them to explain to you what they want. They're the ones who were looking for that house. They're the ones who were calling that specific telephone number. However, if you respond with only a yes or hello on the telephone, quite a few Dutch people are surprised by it. (Sometimes they might even find it insulting if we ask for their name before we're giving them ours.)
A lot of people won't correct your mistakes. They won't say "that's not the norm" because correcting someone on the norm in itself is not the norm.

As an adult, it's even more difficult to know what happens to your kids at school. How would you know who to contact? Who to talk to about your child? What if you disagree about how the child is being treated at school?
It is really difficult to raise your kid properly in such an environment. The child, being used to the culture and traditions of his or her parents will gravitate towards grouping with other people in that same culture.

Then on top of all of this, there are the racist remarks. The ignorance towards your own culture. The things people sometimes say without regard of how others feel is just... heartbreaking.

Have some understanding, please.

Last edited by Waswat at 2013-06-07 13:59:03

#1532967 by Sargoth (Power User) at 2013-06-07 15:13:28 (1 month ago) - [Report]

Waswat wrote:

Here's a small example:
In the Netherlands it's common courtesy to pick up the phone and state your name so the caller knows who is on the line.
However in our culture it's more common to say "Yes?" or "Hello?" without stating your name. This is because it's similar to someone knocking on the door. When you open that door, you expect for them to explain to you what they want. They're the ones who were looking for that house. They're the ones who were calling that specific telephone number. However, if you respond with only a yes or hello on the telephone, quite a few Dutch people are surprised by it. (Sometimes they might even find it insulting if we ask for their name before we're giving them ours.)
A lot of people won't correct your mistakes. They won't say "that's not the norm" because correcting someone on the norm in itself is not the norm.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the norm on how to answer the phone, I also answer with Yes, Hello? I'm sure alot of others do the same. If they seek someone and don't introduce themselves, I ask who's calling.

#1533005 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-06-07 20:16:13 (1 month ago) - [Report]

Sargoth wrote:

Waswat wrote:

Thanks for the answers, much appreciated. For the record I also usually say Hello and wait for the other person to identify themselves.

#1533029 by Waswat Donor

(Power User) at 2013-06-08 01:15:58 (1 month ago) - [Report]

mrunne wrote:

Sargoth wrote:

Waswat wrote:

Thanks for the answers, much appreciated. For the record I also usually say Hello and wait for the other person to identify themselves.

No worries and I'm glad you were interested and positively inquisitive!

#1533187 by PengoIsMe (Sexy Aussie) at 2013-06-10 08:00:49 (1 month ago) - [Report]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22833136

Unfair on the children they say, but isnt it unfair on the tax payers who end up having to foot the bill?

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