Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2011-02-05 18:19:44 (2 years ago) - [Report]

@ Croivzeba: You ever thought that might be more to do with beurocracy (sp) in general and a possibly huge workload dealing with the numbers of people wanting to enter the country in particular?

#1375270 by sandrox (Power User) at 2011-02-05 18:45:50 (2 years ago) - [Report]

For me multiculturalism has failed big time... living next door to latin peole was hell for me. An argentinian girl who had nothing better to do than play loud latino music ALL FUCKING DAY... and the people she invited were so obnoxious.. they weren't talking in a normal voice, they were shouting ALL THE TIME. And a spain neighbor who thought it would be a good idea to turn on the music to maximum every time the sun shows. And thought it would be nice to party in his apartment sundays at 8 am. And when i tell them about it they call me racist! Sorry but i never encountered this problems with middle europeans... just my two cents about multiculturalism.

#1375286 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-05 19:33:38 (2 years ago) - [Report]

sandrox wrote:

Talking louder than white Europeans is what people who speak any of the languages related to Spanish or Portuguese are known for. I lived with a Spanish girl for 6 months. A European, and loud with everything she did (but she was fun : -D). You don't have to be American to be obnoxious as fudge.

Last edited by hOG at 2011-02-05 19:34:53

#1375295 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-05 20:05:03 (2 years ago) - [Report]

people who talk about listening to loud music in this thread have failed to see the point of 'serious chat' :-D

on-topic:

even in different islamic countries, curltural values are not exactly the same
iran, qatar, saudi-aradia, egypt, algeria .. have different cultrues although all contains majority of muslims

so it shouldnt really be that challenging to have islam as a religion in a different culture

i'd be intersted in getting a list of specifics about what that guy means exactly ..

for-example , dis-allow a man marrying more than 1 woman, while still allowing threesome to be not illegal ?
or would they just leave 'personal laws' based on person beliefs (as they should imo)

#1375335 by croivzeba (Power User) at 2011-02-05 22:26:02 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Germs wrote:

@ Croivzeba: You ever thought that might be more to do with beurocracy (sp) in general and a possibly huge workload dealing with the numbers of people wanting to enter the country in particular?

Thought of that of course

, the waiting period.. yea thats part of the bureaucracy.. Used to it after the application for university lol.. but just thinking about how they treat people there is no excuse..

@hmhef: you mean polygamy? Thought that was illegal already in the UK and Germany..

Last edited by croivzeba at 2011-02-05 22:33:15

#1375347 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-05 23:02:19 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

for-example , dis-allow a man marrying more than 1 woman, while still allowing threesome to be not illegal ?
or would they just leave 'personal laws' based on person beliefs (as they should imo)

I personally have nothing agains a woman marrying multiple men or vice versa, in the end marriage is just a contract, the current principles which are held in many countries like a man and woman can only be married (and I am not talking about the ceremony in church, but about the instition called marriage) and to 1 spous at the time are fetched from religion and therefore bullshit (although in those times men used to have multiple wifes which is always somehow forgotten by religious people). As long as same principles are followed in the case of divorce and death and child custody, I don't have anything against it.
But for example a 'personal law' which for example prevents you as a male or as a woman as a public doctor to have opposite sex patients is direct violation against the equality concept in western countries and that is a no no.

#1375364 by kinkystar (Power User) at 2011-02-06 00:21:03 (2 years ago) - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

Hope he is ready for the onslaught of the British press (especially the BBC) who are the stalwart defenders of the PC mindset that has been destroying that country.

The absolute ludicrous and hilarious nonsense of that statement has left my sides hurting. The reason the BBC looks biased is that Britain's right win parties are far further out on the right wing than left wing parties are to the left. If it reports neutral this looks central. Note that when Labour get slated, there is apparently no bias but when the Conservatives mess up and appear in the news its 'bias'.

A large portion of, and certainly the most influential British press publications are overtly racist and owned by a foreigner who exerts huge influence over British governments and the electorate.

The main middle class paper, the Daily Mail hates virtually everything and is exceptionally racist.

PC is one of the most misused phrases in English and is now used to mock virtually everything that right wingers don't agree with.

Now, the reason there is a media problem with this issue is not because of PC, but because today we had an extreme right march going on from a group which is becoming a problem in it's own right and whilst not directly pandering, it's I'll advised timing to say the least.

#1375370 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-06 00:37:34 (2 years ago) - [Report]

BBC report damns its �culture of bias�

Quote:

THE BBC is institutionally biased, an official report will conclude this week. The year-long investigation, commissioned by the BBC, has found the corporation particularly partial in its treatment of single-issue politics such as climate change, poverty, race and religion.

We are biased, admit the stars of BBC News

Quote:

...the BBC is dominated by trendy, Left-leaning liberals who are biased against Christianity and in favour of multiculturalism.....

At the secret meeting in London last month, which was hosted by veteran broadcaster Sue Lawley, BBC executives admitted the corporation is dominated by homosexuals and people from ethnic minorities, deliberately promotes multiculturalism, is anti-American, anti-countryside and more sensitive to the feelings of Muslims than Christians.

Last edited by qbert95 at 2011-02-06 00:39:27

#1375373 by Inspiration (Power User) at 2011-02-06 01:05:18 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Merkel already said that a few months ago if I'm correct. Felt relieved back then, couldn't imagine England would follow so quickly... but good for them, I see this as progress.

And thebiz his posts are sarcasm right?

#1375385 by unknown[190316] at 2011-02-06 02:52:34 (2 years ago) - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

I've lived in Sweden all my life and I'm a swedish citizen and nothing else, I consider this my country and I consider myself a part of the swedish people

And I will defend this country and the swedish people without hesitating.

Patriotism is perhaps the most irrational of all beliefs. I understand why you would defend swedish values but why do you feel the need to blindly swear allegiance to your country? This is nothing more than fundamentalism in another guise and is just as dangerous and divisive as the islamic extremism that everyone is raging about.

Personally, I'm extremely disappointed by Cameron's speech. I think I know what he is trying to say but to say that "multiculturalism has failed" is just wrong and sensationalist. By definition, for multiculturalism to truly fail we would have to abandon our liberal democratic values and embrace the ideas of the BNP. Tolerance and acceptance are key to British politics and that is why we have a multicultural society today. We would have to abandon one in order to abandon the other.

I come from the countryside in the UK and where I grew up it was 99% white, middle class and conservative. I now live in Manchester in a neighbourhood full of different ethnicities, mainly asians and somalis. I have absolutely no problem living there and don't understand how anyone can say "multiculturalism has failed". Certainly, most of the people around me probably know very little about traditional english culture, many shop in their own shops and I'm sure a lot converse at home in another language. However, as long as they abide by the law and do not try and violate the principles of tolerance that we hold dear, then I have no problem with them.

Surprisingly enough, they are more concerned about feeding their families and paying their rent than they are about trying impose Sharia Law on me :tongue:

#1375386 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-06 03:29:54 (2 years ago) - [Report]

gardiner12 wrote:

dodeliatcha wrote:

I've lived in Sweden all my life and I'm a swedish citizen and nothing else, I consider this my country and I consider myself a part of the swedish people

And I will defend this country and the swedish people without hesitating.

The reason I would defend the swedish people is because I know what they have done for me, we have a very liberal country. but fine, I swear allegiance to the swedish "people" and our values. I've known the people here all my life, why wouldnt I?

Anyways its not muslims we are talking about, we are talking about multiculturalism and how people are cut off from eachother. For example the somali neighbourhood in my town. They live their own lives, almost 90% of them are unemployed according to BT (our local but very liberal newspaper). Most of em cant even read, so they dont even go to school. (My somali friend told me that). So they cant speak swedish, and they dont know anything about swedish culture (which sometimes means they are rude without knowing it)

and the weird thing is, many of them have swedish citizenship -.-

This is not an attack on somalian people, I know alot of good somalis. I just brought up an example.

But this is the result of two things;

1. Sweden has taken in far more immigrants than it can cope with. ( We acually take in alot, I can post the sources later). Which might lead to segreagation.

2. This is a result of "preferred" multiculturalism. Where they are encouraged to keep their old values BUT they are NOT encouraged to take up swedish values. The government pays for the somalian brotherhood association, where they all meet and eat somali food and talk somali. So they DON'T feel the need for intergrating (at all). I am not asking them to change their values or to change their clothes, but atleast study swedish values and study the swedish language.

You can remove the word somalian everywhere and replace it with other "nationalities", many non-muslims too ofc.

AGAIN somalians was just an example. I am not raging about extremism at all.

Another example is dual citizenship, because you are allowed to have dual citizenship. This causes alot of people to get swedish citizenship without considering what it means..a bond between you, the swedish people and the swedish judicial system and the executive branch of government. I bet you 5000 dollars that the majority of the people who have a swedish passport dont know what it really means..

Citizenship is supposed to mean more. So many foreigners have dual citizenships ( my parents) which I am against

I don't think its sustainable in the long term, the more global this world becomes. for example you cant serve in the armed forces with dual citizenship. Imagine in a decade or two how many people are gonna have dual citizenship.

I am not complaining about loud music, or the "kind of music" here. I am talking about Unity, We wont have unity in this country if this continues..

this is what I think, Im tired now so I might write something I regret

hehehe probably will regret when someone comes with a better arguement ^^

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-06 03:30:26

#1375413 by Sargoth (Power User) at 2011-02-06 07:51:00 (2 years ago) - [Report]

@dodeliatcha
I think #2 & #1 is exactly why crime is so high they basicly only learn two sentences "Give me your money" and "Give me your mobile phone" (in swedish)

Last edited by Sargoth at 2011-02-06 08:39:31

#1375425 by unknown[397565] at 2011-02-06 10:19:42 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Snuffsis wrote:

you do know that "multiculturalism" regards Multiple cultures, even gypsies?

theft, ignorance, disrespect and generally anti social attitude and unlawful behaviour is not culture

as for the above, talking loud might be culture, or just a habit perhaps, but playing loud music all day and generally annoy your neighbour isn't, whoever says that's culture is a moron

#1375428 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-06 10:27:23 (2 years ago) - [Report]

malavoglia wrote:

as for the above, talking loud might be culture, or just a habit perhaps, but playing loud music all day and generally annoy your neighbour isn't, whoever says that's culture is a moron

obviously you have never lived next to any South Americans. As prevelant and widespead amongst nationalities like Mexicans, Argentinans,Cubans and a few others I would guess it is a cultural thing as I have lived next to Hondurans, Peruvians, Nicaraguans and none of them did that..

#1375457 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-06 12:29:03 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

No it isn't. It is supported by religion and that is a big difference. The Greeks had them, the Indians had them, and so on...

#1375510 by EagleEyez Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-06 16:35:06 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I live in Norway. I've noticed that the number of "pure/tradiditional" norwegians are dropping because of low reproducing rate, while the rate of immigrants is rising. I consider this a problem, but it can be solved if the immigrants try to change and put more pressure on the norwegian values. That is why the muslims can be a problem here in Norway. I know a lot of Muslims that are slowly becomeing more norwegian(which is good [still need several generations, but its the right way]). While some other muslims or people with strong cultures, are becomeing a big problem. Like some of them try to change the norwegian laws to suit them better...

That is where i get angry. Why move to a new country if you try to change it to the one you left. Most of the new immigrants here in Norway, moved here to avoid war or to get a better life. But in the end (long time ofc), the new country will be changed and become the one you ran away from.

I hate gypsies the most of all. Lazy ass people, stealing and messing up the country with no intention of doing something better in their life.

I'm not a racist, but i most admit i truely hate immigrants that dosent wanna become a part of the society at all.

Last edited by EagleEyez at 2011-02-06 16:37:49

#1375511 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-06 16:45:38 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

I'm not a racist, but i most admit i truely hate immigrants that dosent wanna become a part of the society.

It's not racist to hate something for real and existing reasons which have real affect to yours and other peoples lives.
To hate somebody just becase you are told so by somebody or by something (a book for example) or just because somebody is different than you is then another issue.

Quote:

I hate gypsies the most of all. Lazy ass people, stealing and messing up the country with no intention of doing something better in their life.

Now when romania and bulgaria are eu members and their citizens have the right to travle inside eu like they wish the gypsies have become a problem here in finland too.
Lot's of criminal activity and begging in the streets (really outrageous begging, when people are harrased).
And the "villages" they built in the outskirts of towns, those are just something else,like landfills when they after the summer go back to their own countries (luckily we have winters which forces them to go back to their home countries).
Our government was forced to set up no begging laws after few summers of gypsy invasion.

#1375521 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-06 17:06:06 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Interesting stats from denmark:

http://translate.google.com/translate?j … mp;act=url

Quote:

15.7 billion dollars net. That's what immigrants from less developed countries and their descendants annually costing the Danish state, shows new estimates from the independent institution DREAM. The calculations are made for the liberal think tank CEPOS.

and:

Quote:

"We have to be more open minded and try all possibilities," says Finance Minister. The Danish community's net income for immigrants and descendants from more developed countries were last year at 2.2 billion dollars.

Looks like that the danish change on immigration politics (not accept those who cause trouble and only loss for the society) has something in it.

#1375587 by THEBiZ (User) at 2011-02-06 20:00:04 (2 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

malavoglia wrote:

as for the above, talking loud might be culture, or just a habit perhaps, but playing loud music all day and generally annoy your neighbour isn't, whoever says that's culture is a moron

South Americans are joyous ppl by nature. Spanish and Portuguese ppl are also kind of happyish but not even close to south Americans. It's more a matter of education than anything else...

I don't know about the Spanish, but here in Portugal, ppl respect the other person's space. "My liberty ends where your begins".
Don't want to sound snob or anything, but the best chances of hearing ppl yelling in their homes and playing loud music that can be heard by the neighbours are if you go to the "less educated" neighbourhoods, full of immigrants or low class ppl. Brazilians are a real problem... They just can't seem to live without music playing loud.

We're not even half as festive as the other latin folks. I challenge you to hear our most famous music style... It's not drums and whistles, it's not guitars and clapping and dancing, it's "Fado" (meaning faith or some sort of sad destiny/life story) that is deeply melancholic and nostalgic. It's a woman or a man singing (almost as if he/she's crying) and two guitars playing this intensely sad and at the same time, beautiful music. That's intrinsic to our behaviour...

For instance, right now at my home, i can't hear a noise comming from either the upper flat or the lower flat and ppl are at home. In my neighbourhood, you can go through the streets all you want and if you find a house playing loud music and you won't find a single one...

Last edited by THEBiZ at 2011-02-06 20:02:06

#1375589 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-06 20:15:27 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I don't mind if the loud music is not on all the time and it is that loud that it really starts to annoy you.
There are always rules in apartment houses where the time limits for listening music the way it can be heard in other apartments are set, usually it is 22.00-07.00 when one must lower the sound of tv and music.
Unfortunately for example somalis have a different "day conception" as finns. Here you wake up early (around 7am:ish) and then you go to work. You come back home 4pm:ish and do your stuff, then you go to bed latest 12pm.
However somalis start to activate in the evening and stay up to the early hours (due the fact that only fractionof them actually go to work + cultural difference, they are used to just chill at daytime and then be active in the evening and night) causing disturbance to the people who try to sleep.
Luckily we don't live in a apartment house and therefore our family can't disturb anyone and vice versa.

#1375704 by Asd0r (Power User) at 2011-02-07 04:30:18 (2 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

malavoglia wrote:

as for the above, talking loud might be culture, or just a habit perhaps, but playing loud music all day and generally annoy your neighbour isn't, whoever says that's culture is a moron

If you think all we do is talk loud and play loud music, you got it wrong. Obviously you cant judge a culture out of a couple of examples, so I wouldnt go around saying as it if was law. I cant talk for the rest of my latin brethren (except mexicans, they are noisy here aswell) but I know quite a lot of them to say you are WAY wrong.

Last edited by Asd0r at 2011-02-07 04:31:29

#1375705 by Dedi (User) at 2011-02-07 04:50:54 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Maybe it has failed in Europe but I see it flourishing in Canada. You go to Wonderland (attraction theme park) and you cannot tell what country you are in, you have Chinese, Indian, Mexican, Pakistan, Japanese, Africans, all kinds of colors all getting along just fine.

As a matter of fact, the most racism I am exposed to is when I'm hanging around with my Canadian buddies (talking about 5th or 6th generation white Canadians). Given that they have no idea that I'm a foreigner because we only met in college and I have English sounding first name, white skin, and no accent. They go off on their racist rants how they hate all the Chinese / Indians at our school, but this racism is so two faced, because when were in class / doing a project together with an Asian person they are nothing but friendly to them. So its closet racism and as long as it doesn't come out, I don't really care.

#1375710 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-07 05:26:11 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Dedi wrote:

Minorities make up about 15% of Canada's population and that's even including the native indians so Im not sure how you can say its flourishing when that's kind of low to have any real impact. Also going out to a public place and seeing different races is not really proof of anything other than different races like going to theme parks.

If you want real multiculturalism come to the US where it basically means dont bother me with your bullshit and I wont bother you with mine; the only rules are speak english, watch football, and work.

#1375715 by Dedi (User) at 2011-02-07 05:43:56 (2 years ago) - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

I haven't been to Alberta (Canada's version of Texas), or any of the prairie provinces but in Ontario it is definitively higher then 15%.

2006 Census wrote:

Since about 96 percent of people from visible minorities live in urban areas, they have become majorities in many Canadian cities.

Markham near Toronto has 65.4 percent of its population from visible minorities.

The figures for Richmond are 65.1 percent, Burnaby 55.4 percent, Vancouver 51 percent, Toronto 46.9 percent and Surrey 46.1 percent.

So given that more then half of my city's population is a minority I would say that has impact, I only used the theme park as an example because you have such a large number of people within such a small area.

#1375716 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-07 05:50:56 (2 years ago) - [Report]

So you use a place of happiness and fun as a valid area regarding Multiculturalism?

I can assure you that even in Canada there are loads of obnoxious immigrants playing loud music all day and so on, just not where you are.

Around stockholm there are lots of suburbs with 50-70% immigrants and yet when you go to Gr�na Lund (theme park) You see everyone speaking swedish having fun and so on... doesn't relly do it justice, does it?
Because at the end of the day, they'll go home to their homes and start speaking their own language, interract with only their own culture and not get the countries way of life either way.

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