Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1373629 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-01-31 20:10:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Im not shocked the US is the top exporter with the outrageous policies our government has with adding stipulations to foreign aid to certain governments (Israel and Egypt for example) that requires them to spend a certain percentage of that aid to buy US military equipment.

Last edited by qbert95 at 2011-01-31 20:10:25

#1373898 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-01 14:04:47 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Timex wrote:

I understand but what I was saying was in -raw numbers- not total value in cash.

he doesn't give a fuck. He is on his soapbox.
US exports arms to dictators is bad...UK exports shitloads of arms to despots and exporters...thats okie cause the US exports more? That is his logic..selling missles and aircraft to Saudi Arabia is perfectly fine as they have such a wonderful record on human rights and such because they are not selling as many weapons to those countries as the USA and hey they are only getting their piece of the pie right?

But he prefers to try to bog you down with figures and sales. But he cannot refute that there are EU members who export arms to third world despots, dictators and repressive regimes. But as I said it's okie cause they don't do it as much as the USA does. It's like both of us killing people but me claiming I am innocent because you killed more people and that makes what I do okie :rolleyes:

I believe in the top ten arms exporters by country you will find 6 out of the top ten are from the EU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_indus … _exporters

#1373901 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-01 14:09:17 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

I believe in the top ten arms exporters by country you will find 6 out of the top ten are from the EU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_indus … _exporters

US figures are more than all the EU ones put together. Just sayin'

#1373929 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-01 15:34:40 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pharotorrent wrote:

VeryBadGuy wrote:

I believe in the top ten arms exporters by country you will find 6 out of the top ten are from the EU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_indus … _exporters

US figures are more than all the EU ones put together. Just sayin'

guess you should buy a fucking calculator. And stop using shitty bullshit tv English that you watch on tv while getting your misguided opinions on the US.

Last time I checked

European Union Members exports in Millions of Dollars in 2009
2473+1851+1024+925+608+588+353 = 7822

USA Arms exports in Millions of Dollars in 2009
6795

maybe my underpaid overworked poor old American public teachers didn't give me as good an education as your mighty socialist well insured Norwegian ones did. But last time I fucking checked

7822>6795

Now I just have to figure out if you are stupid, being deliberately obtuse or posting such an idiotic statement with the intent to troll the serious chat forum.

#1373937 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-01 15:54:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

If you're just going to select the one year where you're math adds up, then sure.

But I'm not so narrow minded. I like to use broad statistics, which more accurately reflects the facts.
Comparing those top 10 European countries you were talking about, and adding the last 10 years of arms sales together, you will see that the US leads them by a good margin.

But that's okay. I'll let you go on with your rant about superior educational system. Hopefully, they don't teach you to just use statistics from one chunk of data over there.

But hey, why don't you get the statistics from 1502. I'm sure you'll see the US didn't sell a lot of weapons back then. That would really give your argument some good solid legs to stand on.

#1373968 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-01 17:42:41 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pharotorrent wrote:

Wow..pretty obvious going by the MOST CURRENT YEAR. But hey don't let that stop you from making ridiculous unfounded accusations right?

Lets take a closer look at to quote you: "Comparing those top 10 European countries you were talking about, and adding the last 10 years of arms sales together, you will see that the US leads them by a good margin."

From 2000 to 2009:

USA 64888
Germany 18439
France 16349
UK 10214
Spain 3343
Netherlands: 5564
Italy: 4318
Sweden: 4012

Total: 62239

2649M Dollars Difference AND that is a let me quote you "a good margin?"

If anything it shows you that the EU countries are expanding and catching up to the US in arms sales! And it doesn't include ALL EU countries only the 7 (nobody was comparing "10" EU countries to the USA in those stats) that managed to make it into the top 11 biggest arms exporters in the world by country. Include all EU countries and I would wager that it's even closer.

You seem completely oblivious to many things so I don't know why I am surprised by this. So as I said if I kill 10 guys and you kill 9 guys that makes me a worse person how? Guess what? We are both considered murders. And if I sell despots and dictators 10M in arms and you sell them 9M in arms how do you get to take the higher moral ground?

The answer is that you do not...

Last edited by VeryBadGuy at 2011-02-01 17:43:08

#1373980 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-01 18:18:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

I didn't realize I ever argued for morality. All I did was point out a fact, that the US sells more arms than those top 10 European countries you pointed out. I didn't realize you were going to get all pissy and defensive.

Quote:

Latest figures I find has the UK seling almost 5.5BN in weapons in 2007 and probably more since then.

According to wiki, that's pretty far off... So who's coming with bullshit now? Or maybe the wiki numbers we've been arguing with are all wrong anyways, so why even bother...

#1374069 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-02-01 21:07:01 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Mubarak is speaking to the people now. It seems he is not running for another term.

Too tired to comment on it, but I wanted to share the info with you.

#1374085 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-01 21:36:03 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pharotorrent wrote:

Quote:

Latest figures I find has the UK seling almost 5.5BN in weapons in 2007 and probably more since then.

According to wiki, that's pretty far off... So who's coming with bullshit now? Or maybe the wiki numbers we've been arguing with are all wrong anyways, so why even bother...

excellent..you have proven you didn't even bother to read what the discussion was about before firing off your reply. Actually this leads me to believe that you had no other intention than to start shit for the sake of starting shit. Could you be more pedantic in a conversation that you have no clue what is going on if you tried? Even your second quote tells me that you didn't bother reading the argument in this thread :rolleyes:

AGAIN it is NOT top 10 EUROPEAN COUNTRIES FFS. Those are 7 countries that made it into the top 11 countries in the world selling arms.

#1374107 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-01 22:23:30 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

pharotorrent wrote:

Quote:

Latest figures I find has the UK seling almost 5.5BN in weapons in 2007 and probably more since then.

According to wiki, that's pretty far off... So who's coming with bullshit now? Or maybe the wiki numbers we've been arguing with are all wrong anyways, so why even bother...

AGAIN it is NOT top 10 EUROPEAN COUNTRIES FFS. Those are 7 countries that made it into the top 11 countries in the world selling arms.

No I am not saying that the U.S is bad?? Almost every time i posted I said that I was pro-us and I liked obama. Second, I said that the EU atleast didnt have any illusions about being the worlds leader of the freeworld, and defending democracy where ever it is.

Third of all, its not ok for EU members to sell to saudia arabia(worst country in the world). But usually we are more critical of human rights abuses, even in countries allied to us.

This conversation started out where you told me to "reasearch" who exports the worlds weapons..and that it was not the U.S.

I was just showing you how wrong you were, after all.. you did say that it was not the U.S doing the selling???? You can check your own posts and see for yourself.

When did I say it was ok? And I havent refuted that the EU sells? I just refuted the fact that we dont sell as much as you do. Because it was you who told me I was wrong. WE DONT get to take the higher moral ground.....UNLESS we have been stronger critics of that regime in past, and WE can take the higher moral ground in sweden(not the EU). Our leaders have been extremely critical of the mubarak regime in the past..and the EU doesnt represent Sweden at all times. We rarely sell to dictatorships.

Almost never infact. We sold once to the saudis and the swedish people went crazy, after that we havent sold much. Our fighter jet the SAAB Gripen is only sold to democracies. We are even introducing a bill in the Riksdag (parliament) to ban weapon sales to the middle east...any middle eastern country.

BOTH the EU and the U.S were wrong here. Because this guy is one son of a bitch (mubarak). And now its coming back to us here, but it is you who will lose the most. Because you are fighting two wars and you have the task of protecting israel against the people of the middle east. And the egyptian people, will very likely link mubarak to you. Don't you think?

But anyways lets get back to the unrest in egypt now?? We agreed about the islamists shouldnt take over, we agreed mubaraks power is gone, we agreed that mubarak and mugabe was almost the same in crimes against their populations. What happens now? did yo see the last demonstration? over 1million?

Lets discuss this now everyone, timex,VBG, pharotorrent and qbert95 and TheBlues.

EDIT : nice post TheBlues, I'll check it out now.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-01 22:30:22

#1374150 by unknown[369201] at 2011-02-02 00:44:27 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

It started...."MUSLIM BROTHERS" calling Mubarak a "JEW" and blaming him selling country to ISRAEL.(see pictures).
So everything is going how IRAN and behind stand countries were planing: "Kill one more USA ally".
Be ready for WAR....

#1374153 by Urachez

(Power User) at 2011-02-02 01:04:02 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

USAGEORGIAN wrote:

I love reading your comments.

#1374204 by slitt3r90 (Power User) at 2011-02-02 10:26:16 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

WE HAVE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!

it is so so bad to be disconnected from the world...

things here are pretty fucked up, we stand guard EVERY NIGHT on the streets with sticks and knives cause there is no police

thieves are everywhere. And there are people who shoot civilians randomly from cars. the street I am living in we have like 8 road blocks mads by us. we stop every car and motor bike and see IDs and ask where they are going, check for guns or weapons etc

and when we catch people we try to keep them alive... then we call the army to come and take them..

I did not go to my work for like a week now because its closed and there is no salary transfer. And I am not the only one, a lot of people like me who had a job are pretty much semi-jobless now

I will post some pics later on

#1374206 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-02 10:45:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

2nd post from Egypt after the internet services stopped in all Egyptian states and as one of the contributers in the roits and the people's local forces "replacing policemen in our neighborhood", here are some facts/info from our side, these are not put into any order, just what seemed to be missing from your posts guys which i just went through without reading carefully/slowly

- 100 billion Egyptian pounds is the estimated losses of Egyptian shares and still counting.
- 200~300 million total estimated daily losses of small/average businesses.
- 300 are the estimated number of deaths in this protest "from both the police force and protesters".
- 3000+ injuries, counting from losing arms and legs to just being shot with a rubber bullet.
- all the above numbers are collected from different sources till yesterday, they are just there to give an estimate not to report accurately.
- the army didn't take sides, they were just there to prevent the situation from going into serious/direct killing between protesters and police forces.
- Mubarak said yesterday what he should have said last Friday, unfortunately, the opposition requests were more organized by then and it wasn't enough.
- After his speech some guys call themselves supporters gathered today in Al-Mohandeseen in Cairo calling his name in praise and respect, luckily, they didn't exceed one thousand till now and they are not to be taken seriously.
- Ppl are still camping in El-Tahrir Square not convinced by his last statement asking for him to leave OR include the opposition leaders in the new administration OR guarantee them peace and health as nothing was mentioned about the emergency law coming practices in the new administration
- New minister of internal affairs "that's what i think it is called in english" returned the slogan "the police serving the ppl " back instead of "the police and ppl are serving Egypt"
- Muslim-Brothers are not the majority in this protest, and will not have any serious political effect before 2016 or may be even 2020 if you ask me, and they don't care about being elected NOW, they have been gaining ground in ppl's hearts for more than 70 years now, and a couple of more decades won't do them any harm.
- Ppl have taken matter into their own hands faster than expected after ALL police departments were absent for the last 5 days, which increased the rate of crimes committed for 24 hours to go down again to its lowest EVER as every one stayed day and night guarding his neighborhood from intruders and suspects.
- the number of captured criminals in the first day, after the police absence, exceeded 500
- the number of guns/shotguns/swords and serious weaponry scared me at first being carried with locals and normal ppl "hell my 60 years old father was carrying a meat cutting heavy knife", but it took me like 2 hours to overcome such new view.
- Never thought i'll be saying that ever in my life, me and my younger brother were storing Molotov cocktails, just in case. Funny thing, we were trying to figure out the perfect empty bottle to benzine ratio, but there wasN'T an internet connection to make sure.
- oh and yes we are all living in the same street, in case you are wondering how my father and brother status were clear to me like that.
- been a very long, busy, tiring, active week, and most of the Egyptians are happy with the new "power to the ppl" spirit that we never felt before
- it has been like 8+ days, 6 without an internet connection, i am pretty shocked this thread was created only 3 days ago, wasn't there anything in the international news about us for that long?

EDITED:
many typos

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-02 12:23:14

#1374210 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-02 10:53:42 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Nice to see that you guys are allright, welcome back to the information highway.

#1374211 by Germs Donor

(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2011-02-02 10:54:16 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Welcome back to the world all our Egyptian members,hope you all make it back without any losses....and good luck with getting your country back into some kind of stability.

#1374214 by Picard1701E Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-02 10:55:35 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

crazy ass situation, hope you guys get the freedom you so much desire.

#1374258 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-02 13:57:09 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

3rd post from egypt

@demagh

i am one of the people the seriously support Mubarak, at least for the time being
removing him now will only cause chaos between different political moves

the only thing making those different opposition forces together temporarily, is to clear the scene for them to start fighting

the main reason police have been absent is due to the way some protesters dealt with them, and caused them alot of losses and deaths, and stole their weapons, and burned police stations

#1374266 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-02 14:28:31 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Good to see that you are alright guys ! I wish the best for egyptian people. Welcome back to the TB community.

Yeah I created this post 3-4 days ago, YES

..we knew about the protests before that. Nobody created a new thread thats all, it was big news before that. From day one

nobody bothered to create a thread ^^

It was big big news before that

all over the internet.

ok hmhef you support mubarak. Tell us more about your situation...

and your thoughts about the regime..before and during the protests

The same goes for demagh and slitt3r90. Tell us more about why you feel this "new spirit".. we are eager to learn directly from egyptians themselves, we have all discussed alot of things but none of us really know

..I guess what matters most is what you guys think..

Btw how can we help?? Is there a way to send humanitarian aid? considering that most of you people cant go to work..

I'd be happy to send money or anything in fact like shipments of food, but you probably can't send anything at all right? no real postal service?

EDIT : This thread was acually created 29th of january. Thats almost 5 days..

Entire 29 january, 30 january, 31 january, 1 feb and 2 feb

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-02 14:31:29

#1374267 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-02 14:31:00 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef wrote:

Look at what the people who share your views are doing right now.

The anti-govenment protestors have been fairly civilized and non-violent.

What happened instantly when the pro-mubarak protestors came out on the street?
Fire bombs on anti-mubarak supporters. Camels running over them. CNN reporters being beaten up. Killings....

Chaos indeed.

Edit: Several police ID's have been taken from pro-mubarak protestors. They seem to have taken off their uniforms.

Military was dis-armed before the clashes. Probably to prevent them from protecting the people who are now being attacked by pro-mubarak supporters. Some military units are trying to separate them, but without guns, all they have is the egyptian flag to raise while standing in the middle of the two parties.

#1374270 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-02 14:49:32 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pharo just summarized my thoughts faster than expected, thanks for saving my fingers some work

@hmhef
a dictator for 30 years will never change, will live and die as a dictator .. i thought it will take months for that to be proven, but i was wrong, it only took like 16 hours since his speech

take into consideration:
- my family business in both fields "cement trading and real estate" will suffer greatly .., and we all as a family agree that mubarak should LEAVE, talking is not an option anymore, as it was proposed for as a solution before and he rejected it more than we can count, why should we accept it now?!
- i have a wife, a child and a coming child named Adam "will arrive by the beginning of march i hope" and i am fed up, a life where you can't practice your rights as a human is one that is not worth having.

so, if you are going to convince me through the public relations and majority of business suffering, the blood to spare .. try something else.

if egypt was turned into a democratic country, greater opportunities will rise, greater profits and soon any business that survived this era will see the real gold.

Nagib Sawiras, one of Egypt's richest locals and lovable Christians asked the protesters to stay in tahrir square, not to leave before mubarak give his last speech. No need to say that this guy is losing by the minute millions of dollars from the current situation in Egypt, but anyone with any loyalty to himself, his God, his family and fellow egyptians will not accept any compensations to replace mubarak's departure.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-02 15:25:47

#1374274 by slitt3r90 (Power User) at 2011-02-02 14:57:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

well, people here in Egypt are divided, some of them feel its okay he stays for the next 8 months cause he appointed a new government etc, some says he must leave now

I myself am confused.. I dont know what to make from his statement. I am not sure if I want him to leave now or stay for another 8 months, but I would go for stay for another 8 months just so things go back to were it where.

Yesterday in our road block we stopped a car and there was a police man in it, in a civilian clothes. he showed us his badge, ID and gun and said: "I am going to work so you people can go back home and sleep"

So I thought thats a good step towards getting things back to were they where. But today mubarak supporters are clashing with the protesters and its fuckin ugly, I really really hope this doesnt turn to a civil war :S

I honestly dont know where this country will go in the case of a civil war

#1374276 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-02 15:01:52 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

slitt3r90 wrote:

aha ok. yeah when he leaves office in 8 months(if he stays) things will never be the same anyways right?

btw how are you sustaining yourselves? do you have enough food/money? we want to help but how do we help? I mean, we know the economy has gone to hell now

so you people probably need aid, maybe not you guys on TB but others out there?

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-02 15:02:18

#1374278 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-02 15:06:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@slitter
they are divided, but not equally. read my previous post

the police force are our families, friends, i myself got 3 close friends in the police force who refused to contribute in such mess and excused from work this entire time since the first conflict 8 days ago.

But if they chose to support him, and if the time came that we face each other in a blood shedding strike, i know they will hesitate to injure me as they believe they are protecting a dictator and that's not something to die for, but i won't.

#1374280 by slitt3r90 (Power User) at 2011-02-02 15:08:52 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

If he leaves office in 8 months things will never be the same. I am more thinking towards a brighter future after Mubarak leaves..

I have no idea about sending Aid. I am pretty some people need it the thing is how to provide to them, and where, and how to do we make sure that we wont be robbed

thieves are attacking wheat cars and bread is expensive in some places..

most of the people I know are on facebook chat now and most of them want the protesters to go home and end all of this

But I think there is no going back now. Things keep getting escalated pretty fast

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