Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1373033 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-01-30 04:09:34 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

Been watching a bunch of videos of riots/protest and one thing that really sticks out is the complete lack of hot women like the Iran protests had. I cant be the only one of us who notices things like that.

Well, if they're hot they're most likely at home taking care of themselves.

Personally i think this whole riot thingie is gonna backfire for all of them in the long run, like people have said earlier in the thread. The longer it keeps running, the more they'll suffer.

Last edited by Snuffsis at 2011-01-30 04:10:48

#1373037 by unknown[397565] at 2011-01-30 05:35:47 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Living under a dictatorship ain't fun, hope they get their elections and democracy gets established. They have the right to it and other countries comfortably enjoying their democracy at home have no say in this and should STFU.

Sad to see democratic countries non-supporting democracy for Egypt. A dictator is a dictator and there's nothing wrong or biased in wishing him dead. Perhaps you don't quite grasp the difference between a dictator and a president, because there is a huge difference and I find absurd calling the guy "president", perhaps you are the biased one. This arguments you've putting out are so absurd, if I wait a couple posts I'll have to read some more retarded shit on the lines of "Isn't wishing President Mussolini dead a biased opinion?". Enjoy yer fucking democracy, though I ain't very sure you deserve it.

#1373039 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-30 07:02:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

The first thing I said Nazca1peru, was that I agree with you, Lets hope that they get what they want.

And I do agree with both you and VBG about a transition of power and that we MIGHT not get what we want. Once this blows over, we should take action to prevent the muslim brotherhood from taking over.

If you wanna call it a biased opinion of Hosni Mubarak, then fine. It is biased. He is a dictator who has brutally kidnapped, tortured and killed opposition members, both islamist opposition AND secular. Bloggers have been beaten on the streets for simply blogging about his mistakes. Its unbelievable how much he fears his own people.

1. YES mubarak has fired his own people/staff. But he has done that many times before and it hasnt helped one bit. Its not the just the staff they are fed up with. It's with him.

2. I am pulling these numbers from both MSNBC and Fox News Channel. Sean Hannity, a very conservative political commentator. He says that 60% of Egypts population is under 30. And that 90% of those are unemployed. Go to www.foxnews.com and look into hannity videos about egypts crisis.

Also Richard Engle, who is NBC News's Chief Foreign Correspondent has also said the same thing in his videos.

3. The U.S. has been providing Egypt with 1.5 Billion Dollars a year, the majority of that money goes to the army. (Thank goodness) because the army is very secular and the egyptians like them alot. Removing this aid would probably affect the army. So yes it would be worse if the U.S pulled the rug.

4. It is not secret that the Egyptian government shutdown all internet services, and all cellphone communication. (Internet is still down). Tv channels such as al-jazeera were shut down. So Yes I meant the recent blackout

Otherwise we all seem to agree with eachother, muslim brotherhood can't get into power. Army should help to take over in some kind of coalition. We strengthen the secular politicans, such as Elbaradei and then we have elections with UN observers. While the military is a part of some transitional government.

That would definately be the ideal scenario.Lets hope the leaders of Egypt understand that this cannot continue. Just like the protesters are pressured to stop protesting and return to their everday lives, the leaders of egypt are pressured to act quickly. The economy is hurting, but then again. It was so bad and this was the only way for them to achieve reform.

As for qbert95 you're always so funny

hahaha

I always picture you as Yoda in real life

A yoda that goofs around alot

hahah-- Yeah I agree, the iranian girls are 1000x hotter

They are the hottest middle eastern women atleast

But lets try to stay on-topic

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-30 07:03:30

#1373040 by unknown[386359] at 2011-01-30 07:14:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

malavoglia wrote:

Egypt and it's people have every right to democracy, nobody here is saying otherwise. Even the citizens of my country have been protesting for democracy in Egypt since this started, though the MSM has hardly reported it.

malavoglia wrote:

Perhaps you don't quite grasp the difference between a dictator and a president, because there is a huge difference and I find absurd calling the guy "president", perhaps you are the biased one.

I am well aware of the difference. I called the man president only because that is his official title, wheres the bias in this?

malavoglia wrote:

This arguments you've putting out are so absurd, if I wait a couple posts I'll have to read some more retarded shit on the lines of "Isn't wishing President Mussolini dead a biased opinion?". Enjoy yer fucking democracy, though I ain't very sure you deserve it.

The only thing absurd here is the personal attacks without even posting an opinion on the discussion. Wishing a man dead makes you no better than he. There are always other options; oust the man and exile him or capture the man and hold a (fair) trial. I and my family enjoy our democracy, hence my wishing the Egyptian people get the life they want and deserve for future generations.

Perhaps putting forth your opinion on the topic at hand, rather than an individuals post, could clear up any misconceptions that I or anyone else has about the state of affairs in Egypt. That is if you can even enter a discussion without personal attacks or insults. We'll see.

:tiphat:

---edited to add---
Thanks for posting your sources, dodeliatcha, serious discussion often warrants such. My numbers came from a CIA.gov database. As I said previously, I'm not going to post a link to anything owned by the CIA here on TBy. A quick Google search with the keywords "CIA+Egypt" will yield my source.

Yes, it seems that we are in agreement. These ways cannot continue on either side, as both hurt the people in the long run. Hopefully a favorable peaceful resolution is in the near future.

#1373044 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-30 07:47:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

Yepp

But I think thats the official egyptian number maybe. Because both commentators from both the left and the right are saying the same thing. On different newspapers.

If they really had a 9.7% unemployment, I dont think we would see these massive protests. 9.7% after a financial crisis is good. Its better than most countries in the world.

Its pretty much clear that the youth in egypt have no jobs

Anyways guys please read This

Its an article written by a journalist for one of israels leading newspapers Haaretz. His name is Zvi Bar'el. He was awarded the Sokolov prize for lifetime achievement in print journalism and he is a research fellow at the Truman Institute at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

EDIT :
Please read it all, the last part is important. He pretty much sums it up. And this article is meant for all to read. Its not a response

Read it and tell me what you think.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-30 07:51:01

#1373045 by unknown[397565] at 2011-01-30 08:11:49 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Nazca1peru wrote:

I posted my opinion in the very first line, it is absurd that you didn't notice it. Here's for you:

"Living under a dictatorship ain't fun, hope they get their elections and democracy gets established."

My opinion can't be any clearer than that and clearly differs from the "you're better off with Mubarak" opinion. The consequences are irrelevant, every thing you do OR not do has consequences. So, first you start with a step in the right direction, then the next step we'll see, but not doing something that is right for fear of the consequences...is cowardice.

I consider dictatorship a form of betrayal (treason, the real one, toward public interest), it's on a much bigger scale than any other crime possible. I wouldn't call a man capable of that "President" just cause he's unlawfully keeping the title for some 25 years. But hey, evidently for you that doesn't matter.

That kind of betrayal/treason is punished with death in most nations, yours for example, and also others that usually don't ave death penalty, it's nothing wrong wishing him dead. That doesn't mean that's my opinion, I don't care if Mubarak lives or dies, it's up to Egypt people.

There are no personal attacks NOR insults in my post, your name isn't mentioned nor your posts quoted anywhere. If you felt called upon by my post even though you weren't, then perhaps it's cause you yourself felt part of the that group of people "comfortably enjoying democracy at home talking shit" I was talking about, you did all by yourself.

#1373048 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-30 09:20:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

malavoglia wrote:

I consider dictatorship a form of betrayal (treason, the real one, toward public interest), it's on a much bigger scale than any other crime possible. I wouldn't call a man capable of that "President" just cause he's unlawfully keeping the title for some 25 years. But hey, evidently for you that doesn't matter.

And yet in Italy living under Il Duce is the only time that anything ever got done in this country. Roads got built, projects got built etc etc etc all without the bullshit hand wringing, crappy back office politics that it takes to get even the simplest thing done any more.

Hell if anything I would say some countries (like this one) actually DO need a dictator (albeit an benign one that doesnt kill innocent people etc) As I said before in this world way too many people are too stupid to understand that what they want is not always what is best for them.

#1373050 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-30 09:33:21 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Has anyone read the article I posted in my previous post? please do that...

btw this has bigger implications than just egypt. Today all the dictators around the world are scared of their citizens. I think that this will prompt other dictatorships to atleast reconsider how they treat their own citizens.

So if Egypt does not benefit, maybe someone else will? Maybe the other dictators will ease the oppression of their people, and atleast they will have more tolerable lives.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-30 09:35:44

#1373052 by unknown[386359] at 2011-01-30 10:02:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

malavoglia wrote:

Yet nobody here is positing that position, everyone posting so far shares that same opinion. The only opinions for Mubarak staying in power is if the result of him stepping down would make things worse. (An example of which would be Al-Ikhwan coming into power.)

malavoglia wrote:

I wouldn't call a man capable of that "President" just cause he's unlawfully keeping the title for some 25 years. But hey, evidently for you that doesn't matter.

I've already stated that I called him by title only, as well as my opinion on his 30-year position.

malavoglia wrote:

There are no personal attacks NOR insults in my post, your name isn't mentioned nor your posts quoted anywhere. If you felt called upon by my post even though you weren't, then perhaps it's cause you yourself felt part of the that group of people "comfortably enjoying democracy at home talking shit" I was talking about, you did all by yourself.

No, I did not feel "called upon" by your previous post, but it is obvious to whom you were referring.

dodeliatcha wrote:

Has anyone read the article I posted in my previous post? please do that...

I did read it, particularly the last two paragraphs. It's an interesting point of view and I'm afraid that the "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch" point of view is shared by a lot of US officials. It is reported that following a 30 minute telephone call with Obama, Mubarak has stated he will not step down from power. If true, this doesn't bode well for the current situation.

People all over the US have taken to the streets in support of the movement in Egypt, though I doubt anyone on capital hill is listening. U.S. demonstrations show support for Egyptian movement

Perhaps Obama can do a bit more than just a phone call. World leaders supporting democracy in Egypt should give a little face time and call for Mubarak to step down. While I'm sure they are all worried about his successor, that issue can be handled after the fact.

#1373071 by alupigus (Lumberjack) at 2011-01-30 11:06:08 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Hell if anything I would say some countries (like this one) actually DO need a dictator (albeit an benign one that doesnt kill innocent people etc).

"A benign dictator"......LOL!Have you ever lived under a dictatorship?I have lived 28 years ,my entire youth.I assure you there is no such thing like a "benign dictator".

Quote:

As I said before in this world way too many people are too stupid to understand that what they want is not always what is best for them.

Most politicians believe that ,mr. Obama included.
Yes people take wrong decisions,they do stupid thing, but they also learn.It`s true it`s a long and sometime painful process,but with a bit of luck and a bit of help (and by help I understand a real help and not "give me your oil or your gold or any other natural resource you have and then you can go and f*ck yourself"...not this type of help) they learn.

Last edited by alupigus at 2011-01-31 09:52:57

#1373157 by pneumothorax (User) at 2011-01-30 17:21:56 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

This argument is quite flawed, especially in the case of Italy. Fascism in Italy was a period of extreme ressource wasting and taking it as an example for the better governance of dictatorships is quite questionable.

VeryBadGuy wrote:

As I said before in this world way too many people are too stupid to understand that what they want is not always what is best for them.

And who are you to decide wether somebody is capable of making a decision or not?

Why are Europeans, Americans allowed to choose for themselves and Egyptians are not ?

I agree that the picture of a strong radical islamist party seems like a lot of trouble but it's not a fact at all that it will be strong nor that it will rise to power nor that it will halt democratization. I think we should take a look on the possible benefits of transformation and democratization in Egypt and what positive effects it might have towards peace in the Middle East.

I honestly don't understand why some people here are so afraid that Egypt would instantly become a radical Islamist dictatorship, when seeing the diversity of protestors and the movements leaders. I think that people like El Baradei don't really look like those radical islamists that we fear so much in the "Free World".

#1373215 by zazou (Power User) at 2011-01-30 20:34:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

[edit]:
Also, lol at some of the comments here. The racism is pretty astounding, I guess Arabs are fair game. Half of you bemoan the arabs for not standing up to the dictators, and then, suddenly, when they do, you claim that the islamists will take power, and a dictator that represses the people and stifles any possible opposition (except the bogeyman islamists) is better than "the alternative".

I guess you don't really see the vicious circle here. Dictator that plays western fears of islam, by stifling everything except the most vile islamic messages (see these clips from Egyptian State TV: ) to present a false choice.

Well, thankfully, Arab's aren't the idiots you would like them to be. Sure they have lots of problems, as any large population with diversity will have, but they're fed up.

Oh, and at best, it is only in our short term interest to have friendly dictators. Eventually they will fall, and people often remember who supported those dictators. Egypt losing $1.5 billion in aid, which incidentally almost entirely goes towards purchasing American weapons (with veto power by Israel), which are generally used to repress Egyptian people. Somehow, I don't think that'll be missed.

is it just me or:

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

Last edited by zazou at 2011-01-30 20:56:27

#1373252 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-30 21:30:03 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pneumothorax wrote:

VeryBadGuy wrote:

And yet having lived here for years and years I can take you for a walk around my city and point out the things that were built when Mussilini was in power and you know what? They are newer than any other government built building or site in the city. That blows my mind. The fact remains that if you want to do anything in this country you need to give political reach arounds or bribes to get them done. And while not espousing fascism I was pointing out that at the very least things did get done. Resources waisted under Fascism? More than likely, but resources waisted under "democracy" i am more than sure of.

pneumothorax wrote:

VeryBadGuy wrote:

As I said before in this world way too many people are too stupid to understand that what they want is not always what is best for them.

And who are you to decide wether somebody is capable of making a decision or not?

Why are Europeans, Americans allowed to choose for themselves and Egyptians are not ?

I see what you are saying and maybe it sounds a bit wrong. But just like children need guidance from their parents I think 99% of African countries if they were to shift to a democracy would need guidance or they fall right back into the same situation. In that respect we as the west fail time and time again. All I am saying is that if a country despite being one of the earliest and greatest civilizations in the world has almost nil experience with democracy why shouldn't we guide them? I am not saying Arabs or Egyptians are stupid. What i am saying is that after the regime of a brutal dictator who didn't meet the needs of the people they are going to latch onto whoever seems to be on their side, whoever shows them kindness or gives them the things that they need. This is the card that has been played by the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo and I am afraid it's something that will continue.

And finally as for the "USA needs to do something etc" can someone post me a link where somewhere in the past 30 years of Mubarek rule where the European Union has come out and denounced him? Hell show me where any country has?

Last edited by VeryBadGuy at 2011-01-30 21:30:39

#1373270 by Germs Donor

(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2011-01-30 21:59:04 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

I found this for you VBG.I'm assuming you're referring to the well known phrase "say what you like about Mussolini but he made the trains run on time" .As it's from the TV show QI it must be true :

In 1922, to the dismay of the average Italian, there was a General Strike in Italy. Mussolini, addressing a crowd of 40,000 Fascists in Naples declared that unless the Government put an end to it, the fascists would do it for them.

"Either the Government will be given to us" he roared " or we will seize it by marching on Rome!!" The crowd started chanting "Roma!Roma!Roma!.

Four days later, the famous March on Rome indeed began, headed by four leading Fascisti known as the Quadrumviri. Mussolini was not one of them. It took place without him goose-stepping at its head. He was back home in Milan, quaking in his jackboots. (Or as the Encyclopaedia Britannica more politely puts it 'still hoping for a political compromise')

The King, however, agreed to the fascists' demands in principle and sent a telegram to Benito saying that, if he were to catch a train to Rome (and provided he didn't wear the silly uniform) the King would appoint him Prime Minister.

Mussolini then called the Mayor of Milan and told him urgently: 'It is VITAL that my train arrives on time!!'. The Mayor called the station master in a panic who called everyone else and yelled at them, and in due course the train arrived promptly.

We can therefore say, without fear of contradiction, that Mussolini made one of the trains run on time...
Source(s):
QI

Last edited by Germs at 2011-01-30 22:01:32

#1373326 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-31 03:21:15 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

The difference between many european countries and the U.S is that we dont provide the Egyptian security apparatus with shitloads of money and weapons, money that are used for torture, illegal imprisonment and murder.

and we dont say that we are defending "democracy" around the world when we actively support the worst dictators. ( I.E all the kings of the middle east). The reason many people say that the U.S should do something is becuase the united states are providing egypt with cash. Which means they have the most clout and becuase the u.s. always boasts how it defends democracy abroad and always stands with freedom. If the U.S withdraws support for mubarak, he is done!.

there is no difference between mubarak and robert mugabe of zimbabwe in the "oopression". Yet mugabe is constantly taking fire for the crazy shit he has done. Killing and imprisoning the opposition. Its condemned everyday, but not mubarak. Because he is a u.s. ally and he is protecting israel from the wrath of his own citizens.

But yeah, european leaders have been far too quiet on this. Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt just came out and said that the entire EU needs to put pressure on the power elit in egypt. He said that the EU's foreign minister or (EU foreign affairs representative) should take a tougher stance for all of Europe. He hopes more people in the middle east will protest.

Another example is Iran, everybody condemns Iran. But nobody says anything about Saudi Arabia (among the leaders). Iran is a paradise compared to saudi arabia. There is not doubt that the saudis are worse. (They are infact the worst) but nobody says a thing.

Either way, this will end badly for both the U.S (trust me I am usually pro US) and israel, wether islamists or secularists take over. They dont exactly see the u.s. as an angel in the middle east. They link mubarak and his years of oppression with the united states and israel because of political and economical backing.

Hopefully for you and for us, the secularists will not be AS anti-u.s. as the islamists.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-31 03:27:39

#1373329 by zazou (Power User) at 2011-01-31 04:30:20 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

you people should read this.
Tell everyone: Egypt's revolution is sweet and peaceful

It's high on rhetoric, anyhow, make of it what you like.

Here're the first four paragraphs

Amr Shalakany wrote:

Amr Shalakany in Tahrir Square, Cairo
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 30 January 2011 20.42 GMT

This is a sweet, sweet revolution; it is peaceful. Tell everyone we are peaceful.

We do not owe this revolution to the Muslim Brotherhood, not to anybody. They say the Ikhwan is more organised � maybe. But this is the people on the street; this is not about any political party. Look, he says, more and more people are coming; Tahrir Square is getting more and more full.

I am sorry, the man tells me, but I hate your president. What is this speech he gives? Why can't he support us? He says we can have human rights but he gives us no political rights? To America, we are monkeys, monkeys, monkeys. We Egyptians don't deserve a constitution, don't deserve freedom, don't deserve democracy.

We are in the streets every day since 25 January and you give us Omar Suleiman, an agent? We are out here demanding our rights and you give us the head of intelligence? We will not accept Suleiman. America puts the security of Israel above the people of Egypt. We are monkeys to America. They are saying we Egyptians don't deserve political rights, don't deserve freedom. It's over� the fact that the outside world continues to engage this guy Mubarak is ridiculous. It's over.
...

Last edited by zazou at 2011-01-31 04:33:11

#1373337 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-01-31 05:46:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

Either way, this will end badly for both the U.S (trust me I am usually pro US) and israel, wether islamists or secularists take over. They dont exactly see the u.s. as an angel in the middle east. They link mubarak and his years of oppression with the united states and israel because of political and economical backing.

Hopefully for you and for us, the secularists will not be AS anti-u.s. as the islamists.

The reality is for 99% of Americans we could give a flying fuck about who leads Egypt and whether or not they like us and believe it or not most of us, who aren't either Jewish or Evangelicals, can give two shits about Israel. At the end of the day it just two countries that we send billions of dollars (that we desperately need for ourselves) to play nice with one another so oil prices stay stable.

#1373355 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-31 09:04:34 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha you really might want to do a bit of research on who the biggest exporter and seller of arms in the world is and who they sell weapons too.

Give you one clue...it isn't the USA doing the selling. And the countries are not a list of civil rights respecting countries where torture is unheard of.

But I do agree with you about Mugabe or Mubarek etc. But the old saying about the enemy of my enemy is my friend holds true. If Mugabe was fighting Islamic terrorism within his boarders we would probably turn a blind eye and give him cash and weapons too.

Personally I think the US should stop giving money to ANYBODY outside of our boarders including Isreal or Egypt and spend it on Americans instead. We give billions upon billions to Isrealies who steal our technology and don't listen to us anyways about building in the West Bank etc. I would rather use that money to make my country better. They are big boys and can handle themselves.

#1373360 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-31 09:39:15 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

The United States is the worlds largest arms exporter in terms of USDollars and has been number one since 2003.

The russians are the second largest exporters, but the last time they exported more than the u.s. was in 2002. According to SIPRI. ( Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.) A Top Global Think Tank.

It is well known that the United States is now the worlds largest arms exporter???? ahead of russia.

United States: 41% of Global Arms Sales
Russia: 17% of Global Arms Sales
France: 8% of Global Arms Sales
United Kingdom: 7% of Global Arms Sales
Germany: 4%of Global Arms Sales

I know the russians sell alot to dicatorships.. and the chinese, but they are dictatorships themselves

But atleast they dont call themselvers defenders of democracy and want to "promote" freedom

Yeah I agree with you about the money, you should stop giving it to other countries

, especially when your economy is in such a bad shape (altough its picking up). Its the wars I think that are really stupid in terms of money though, they have costed almost 1,2 trillion dollars

and by the time the wars end they wil have costed almost 2 trillion dollars

If you had spent that on reducing your deficit (instead of borrowing everything from china) or you guys could have spent it on infrastructure, like bullet trains and more internet/cellphone coverage. Even south korea has better internet coverage now ^^ Research for universities too...

And best thing of all, you could have spent a fraction of the war money on putting a few more national guard troops and cameras along your border

and reduced the flooding of illegal immigrants..

And really, in the end..how much safer is the u.s. because of the wars? Imagine putting that money on the border, and on new satellites and recon drones...new surveillance equip.. AND doing a few military air strikes in the middle east instead of sending troops

NASA estimates the cost of a space programme to put a man on mars to be 150 Billion dollars

thats only a fraction

but this is OT

Anyways I have high hopes for Obama. Wikileaks even show that he pushed for more tolerable lives for the egyptians behind the scenes. Without lambasting mubarak publicily. So atleast he fights a little bit for freedom without taking credit for it..

Lets not turn this into a u.s. bashing thread

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-31 10:36:11

#1373410 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-31 13:29:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

But atleast they dont call themselvers defenders of democracy and want to "promote" freedom

From year to year it apparently varies on who is the biggest exporter of arms.
But the UK ranks first or second many times and is always near the top. Or did you think those Saudis get their tornados from the Americans?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/ju … audiarabia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3084718.stm

Latest figures I find has the UK seling almost 5.5BN in weapons in 2007 and probably more since then.

#1373450 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-01-31 15:31:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

dodeliatcha wrote:

What you are saying is that Americans continue to disappoint.

Last edited by hOG at 2011-01-31 15:32:39

#1373491 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-01-31 16:52:27 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Arm sales in amount of "money" is one thing but for raw numbers China exports the most weapons....cheap $16 USD AK-47's and even cheaper ammo.

#1373576 by kneoghau (Power User) at 2011-01-31 18:59:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Shit got done in Egypt back when they had slaves as well
Still, red tape vs dictatorship isn't the best argument i've ever heard

#1373584 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-31 19:06:53 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Where does it say that the united states in not the top arms exporter? Seriously, do you acually believe that the U.S is not the worlds largest arms exporter?

According to your FIRST source :

Traditionally, American arms companies have occupied the top spot in the global arms market, with Britain, Russia and France vying to be the runners-up. Over the past five years the top arms exporters have been the US, with $63bn worth of sales, UK ($53bn), Russia ($33bn), France ($17bn) and Germany and Israel ($9bn each), according to government figures.

Analysts yesterday said that the latest figures reporting Britain's top spot in 2007 should be treated with caution, as they represent orders and not actual deliveries of equipment.

According to your Second source, the BBC link:

The industry's biggest customer is the British government, which last year placed orders worth about �13bn.

But the UK is also the world's second biggest arms exporter, behind the United States, with a market share of about 20%.

TOP MILITARY EXPORTERS (2001)
US - $9.7bn
UK - $4bn
Russia - $3.6bn
France - $1bn
China - $500m
Israel - $300m

Source: Congressional Research Service

its still the united states according to both sources that exports the most. You are confusing exports with placed orders.

Check this source too: http://www.sipri.org/googlemaps/at_top_20_exp_map.html SIPRI says that its easily the united states, the uk doesnt even come close.

Another source : http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? … ;aid=13415

There is no doubt that the united states in the worlds largest arms exporter. While U.K exports a fair amount, they dont come close to russia and the u.s. over this last decade.

SIPRI is the worlds number one information source for these things. The leading global think tank. They are used by many sites and newspapers for citation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_indus … _exporters

here you can see year by year, the uk doesnt come close. No I dont think the saudis get "tornados" from the u.s. but I do know that the u.s and saudi arabia has signed the biggest military deal ever.

Worth about 60 Billion USD. According to the wall streeet journal :
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … 25050.html

According to Trade and not "placed orders" both the u.s. AND russia easily dwarf the united kingdom in arm sales this decade.

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Yes it is the USA doing the selling, together with russia, and then comes the UK.

EDIT : Timex, no china is not the worlds largest arms exporter, even if they sell cheap weapons. Selling 2 AK-47s vs 1 naval vessel doesnt mean you are a "larger" exporter if you sell the Kalashnikovs. China doesnt come close, in terms of dollars traded OR in terms of weapons

If I sell 10.000 AK-47 for 1 Million dollars. and you sell 5.000 AK-47 for 0.5 million and a naval vessel for 1 Billion, then you are the larger exporter

So no, with all due respect, china is not counted by any serious think tank/institute as the worlds largest arms exporter

Google largest arms exporter, and almost all newspapers/sites will link you to SIPRI.

btw http://current.com/news/90456604_guns-u … survey.htm

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-31 19:23:55

#1373618 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-01-31 19:58:43 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

I understand but what I was saying was in -raw numbers- not total value in cash.

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