Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1372815 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-29 09:14:35 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

What do you guys think? Personally I think its time for the mubarak regime to go. They have been in power for 30 years :S and while they have been nice to israel and the u.s. They havent been nice to their own population, otherwise their wouldnt be mass protests. They even blacked out cellphone coverege and internet.

Egypt's Regime on the Brink

EDIT : Dictators have to fall, its simply the nature of us humans to not tolerate supression. The egyptians are fed up. thats it.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-29 20:23:19

#1372819 by pithawg Donor

(Power User) at 2011-01-29 09:29:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

A single thought for a misplaced war amidst terrible and sadly unending chaos.Painful bloodshed hunkered in a blown out dusty street with despairing tears and terrorized eyes. See the children in bloodied flesh and think of your own child. Think of the crippled fears of broken families, lost cousins and innocent children
caught in a shameful, worthless war! Why do we make concessions for such tragic conclusions. Real People getting hurt whilst two warmongering sides claim it is about people when it
really comes down too money, hate and fear. Why do we let
WAR Happen!! What is wrong with the f&*#ing WORLD.

Last edited by pithawg at 2012-11-22 17:53:34

#1372824 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-29 09:48:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

pithawg wrote:

Personally i think the people in Egypt are doing exactly what needs doing. They are my new Heroes.
The people in other countries need to do the same thing. Time for a change; It is 2011 and the old school governments/regimes/warlords etc.. need to wake up. Freedom is something we should all have.

Happy Days..

Yeah, I mean we are all worried that the muslim brotherhood will come into power but I dont think so. Many analysts say that they are young people out there. I have relatives in Cairo, we spoke to them just before the communications blackout. They say christians and muslims are out there demonstrating. Muslim women with or without headscarves.

Everybody are fed up with mubarak. They simply cant stand him anymore. They are also angry at the United States, because they supposedly defend freedom and democracy, but only when its about a country that they dont like. Now president obama, whom I like very much has pretty much endorsed president mubarak. VP Biden said he wouldn't call mubarak a "dictator". If he is not a dictator, then what is he? I hope the we here in the European Union will take a tougher stance, and support free elections wether we like the results or not. If a new authoritarian regime emerges, then we will condemn that one too and help the people.

I hope Elbaradei will take control of a transitional government for a few months (if Mubarak falls) and then I hope egypt will have free elections for the first time ever I think. WITHOUT Elbaradei participating!. Wouldnt that be the best scenario? Elbaradei is a secular nationalist that headed the IAEA for a few years.

What do the other guys think? The americans in this forum? Timex and VeryBadGuy? Do you support regime change? or do you think, like many americans in the wall street journal/fox news comments that he should stay because he is a u.s. ally?

I'd be happy to hear all arguments, altough I agree with the egyptian people, mubarak has to go. Both sides seem to have legitimate arguements. Though most people throughout world will probably stand on the egyptian peoples' side.

Personally I dont see a difference between the protests now, and the protests in Iran in 2009. They are exactly the same. I dont understand how republican leaders in washington bashed obama for not supporting the iranian people who wanted freedom, but now they dont say anything at all. I dont understand how you can call someone with such a brutal history, " a friend ". 30 years of opression :S

Thank you

dodeliatcha out

EDIT : Please dont turn this into an islamist bashing thread.

Lets talk about what the people of Egypt want and need.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-29 09:55:38

#1372827 by unknown[92931] at 2011-01-29 11:17:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

It's definitely time for a change, not only in Egypt but in every so-called Islamic country. People like Mubarak have been ruling countries for decades and kissing ass of the West to fill their own pockets while their policies have done nothing good for Muslims inside and outside of their countries. It's time for a change so Muslims can finally REALLY choose how and by whom they want to be ruled, instead of those so-called democratically elected puppets of the West. And if that's Hamas or Muslim Brotherhood or whatever, it's their choice.

#1372835 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-29 11:35:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

EDIT : Please dont turn this into an islamist bashing thread.

Lets talk about what the people of Egypt want and need.

What Egypt needs is reform not riots in the street.
You honestly think removing Mubarek from power is what Egypt needs? You think that power vaccum would be filled by another person willing to work to further peace in the Middle East? :blink:

Yes Dangerpaki..by all means let's allow another extremist bullshit anti-western group to come to power like Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. Because we can see how well that is working out for the Palestinians who elected hamas.

I agree there needs to be reform but if leaving him in power prevents a group that the rest of the world knows is worse from coming to power than I am all for it.

It's like riots in LA and in Miami where black people go around burning down black owned businesses in their own neighborhoods. The Egyptians are only shooting themselves in the foot. A lot of poor people rely on tourism for the source of their income and how many tourists are going to come to a country in flames? How many will travel there knowing that an extremist muslim group is in control of the country? Zero..and Egypt will be even poorer in the long run.

Last edited by VeryBadGuy at 2011-01-29 11:35:32

#1372854 by unknown[32479] at 2011-01-29 12:42:52 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@vbg - it pretty much cannot get any worse in egypt, removing a despot is atleast a good start for something else. remember they have a long history with both higher education and a secular/civilized culture; the muslim brotherhood probably can stir some noise, but that's about it.

interesting watching al jazeera yesterday starting with the press briefing from the whitehouse by gibbs via the military entering cairo to mubaraks speech and finally the speech by obama. spin it baby!

#1372865 by spotmarker Donor

(Power User) at 2011-01-29 13:29:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

You seem a little naive.
What should a people do that has been ruled by a dictator for 30 years under a state of emergency? What would you do? Go to the police and tell them that they should please stop hitting people that speak out their opinion? Write a letter to the "president" that he should remove state of emergency?

I'm sorry... but I guess what's going on now is exactly what Egypt needs. The military is still very much accepted and fair to the people. There is no power vacuum.

And the whole "we want democracy for everyone (but only if you elect people we want you to)" is hypocritical on such a high level that I'm honestly amazed a person that is able to use a computer can seriously mention that.

#1372871 by Germs Donor

(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2011-01-29 14:11:10 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

It's a case of "be careful what you wish for".If they get democracy that's great but I bet most Iranians were expecting something other than what they got when they overthrew the Shah.The Russian revolutionaries weren't expecting 80 years of tyranny.

If a muslim leader gets power I hope it will be someone who gives his people freedom not "freedom so long as you do what I decree is right".
But lets face it revolutions, on the whole,haven't turned out so great for the common people in the last century or so.

#1372876 by slacker4life (Power User) at 2011-01-29 14:33:53 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

this whole thing doesn't seem organized enough and will have no follow through. i see this as more less non strategically stirring the pot which i would assume has equal chance for bad things to happen as good if not more. people need to plan these things far better instead of just running around with a couple sticks and yelling angrily.

does it suck to essentially have a dictator in power for the people under him, of course. could it be worse if this escalated enough to cause more unrest in the middle east and not having egypt available to be on our or at least "my" side, of course.

#1372877 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-29 14:33:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

spotmarker wrote:

I'm sorry... but I guess what's going on now is exactly what Egypt needs. The military is still very much accepted and fair to the people. There is no power vacuum.

Are you shitting me? The Military has and always will be in the back pocket of whatever dictator is in charge. And while they may have assasinated Sadat they surely have shown no signs of going against Mubarek.

spotmarker wrote:

And the whole "we want democracy for everyone (but only if you elect people we want you to)" is hypocritical on such a high level that I'm honestly amazed a person that is able to use a computer can seriously mention that.

I honestly don't give a fuck what you think. So if another Hitler was more than likely to come to power in Germany you would say "hey that's what the people want!"
I hate to break it to you, but people are like children and half the time what they want and what is good for them are two different things.

#1372888 by spotmarker Donor

(Power User) at 2011-01-29 15:35:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

spotmarker wrote:

I'm sorry... but I guess what's going on now is exactly what Egypt needs. The military is still very much accepted and fair to the people. There is no power vacuum.

You might have missed the news. People taking pictures with the soldiers, riding with them on the tanks etc.

VeryBadGuy wrote:

spotmarker wrote:

Of course you don't.

The comparison to Hitler is lame. It's true that he was elected democratically. But the whole circumstances were completely different as you had a country, a people that felt mistreated by everyone around them. having to pay loads of money, just waiting for someone to come and say "fuck all the others". You just can't compare this to the current situation in Egypt.
As for your last point, I partly agree with you. But who is to say what's good for someone or not? Personally, I'd go for more or less universal rules like human rights. But unfortunately many people only look at the ideology. Not accepting people that might have different political views.

#1372889 by unknown[293451] at 2011-01-29 15:37:33 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Some of you people are hilarious! All the people who think that a pluralistic democracy is going to come out of all this sure do have a wild imagination. Mubarak, whether some want to admit it or not is much better than the alternative. But let's just all pretend that these people are standing up for freedom blah! blah! blah! Freedom Hamas style I suppose. I wonder what will become of the copts? I'm sure they'll be treated fairly. :rolleyes:

#1372892 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-01-29 15:43:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dangerpaki wrote:

And if that's Hamas or Muslim Brotherhood or whatever, it's their choice.

I think the problem there is the same problem countries face when they "chose" communism, its a final decision with no take backs. These kinds of governments cant exist in the presence of any sort of opposition so they inevitably become the same sort of tyranny they threw out and become defacto one party rule. Hopefully before the Egyptians start install a new government (if that happens) they put in place some sort of constitutional framework to protect any future democracy from turning into Iranian type state.

#1372894 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-29 15:48:27 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

spotmarker wrote:

You might have missed the news. People taking pictures with the soldiers, riding with them on the tanks etc.

If they are asked to maintain order how is that going against their orders?

spotmarker wrote:

I don't believe it's lame. I believe that the rest of the world stood bye and allowed all of that to happen. If someone had intervened millions upon millions of lives could have been saved. Now I am not suggesting that is the case here. But while things are bad a transformation into a non-secularly led country would only be an absolute disaster for the region, peace and for the Egyption people themselves. They have no other real source of income other than Tourism and that will simply cease to exist once people determine that their own religous views will not be respected when visiting. Poverty will worsen and even more radical behaviours will emerge. As Buddy pointed out the coptic christians already suffer now under secular rule what would they do should islamists come to power?

As for knowing what is good for them. I think that most Western democracies would be a pretty good choice to tell them what is good for them.

#1372899 by unknown[293451] at 2011-01-29 16:08:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

Hopefully before the Egyptians start install a new government (if that happens) they put in place some sort of constitutional framework to protect any future democracy from turning into Iranian type state.

Hopefully if that is done they don't follow the Afghan playbook and constitutionally mandate a wife to have sex with her husband whenever he pleases, essentially mandating rape. This is under the presence of Western forces. I'm sure the supposed future constitution of Egypt will mirror that of Western democracies with it's cornerstone being human rights for all. Then, maybe everyone all over the world can simultaneously hold bonfires and sing Kumbaya as one.

#1372950 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-29 20:14:19 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Well here is what I think,

If you are a young guy in Egypt, your probably unemployed. 60% of Egypts population is under 30 and 90% of those under 30 are unemployed.

The official unemployment figure is 33% :S even that is sick

. Anyways you've been ruled by the same leader for 30 years, and corruption is just getting worse. The internet is not free, bloggers cant say whatever they want. Maybe they're fed up?All you can think about is getting rid of the current system, because its so bad. Everytime you protested against a certain measure you got beaten by the police. Imprisoned by the security services, where they undressed you and tortured you.

And I remember reading about the muslim brotherhood, when sewages and piplines broke in egypt, and shit started leaking, nobody in the egyptian government did anything about it. The muslim brotherhood then came and fixed it. They set up small hospitals where the government did not.. etc

If you're an unemployed 28 year old guy, standing on the streets of cairo today, you look in one direction and you see mubarak and his cronies, a corrupt dictator with a long history of torture and incompetence. And you see the United States saying they back freedom, but only if they are positive that the elected is friendly to them and pro-western.

When you turn your head and look in the other direction, you see young people, both christians and muslims demonstrate, poor people that have suffered for decades like you. And MAYBE you see the muslim brotherhood (giving out food and repairing certain infrastructure). Is it really so weird that they might choose that? (Anyways, many people believe its not the muslim brotherhood that are going to take power).

How can you ask the people to do whats "right" and keep mubarak in power? To them, that America stands for freedom is nothing but BS :S They just dont get it. Mubarak was asked by stephen hadley, president bush's national security adviser to create a civil society, to strengthen not the muslim brotherhood but the "secular" opposition. But he refused according to stephen hadley, now he has to go.

Hillary Clinton pointed out that the oppression of the people by these pro u.s. arab dictators are often what drives them towards extremism. The lack of opposition means that they have no other people to turn too.

I think the army should oust mubarak, take power and let Elbaradei head a new government. This new government would then create elections in a year or two. During that time, the egyptian should create national political parties and different tv channels should allow them to debate eachother on national satellite tv. Strengthen the middle! The ones between mubarak and the muslim brotherhood I mean.

And stephen headley agrees with me

or mostly anyways. Hopefully the army will take over and during that time we should make sure, that they strengthen the political "center". Which according to him, does exist in the country. And if you keep giving money to people who torture their own citizens for over 30 years, how can you NOT expect things to backfire sooner or later?

Anyways. This is now in the hands of the Egyptian people.

And yes, the army is beginning to side with the people. Hopefully they will back Elbaradei.

EDIT: you guys should update your info, many people now believe mubarak is going to be ousted. Conservative analysts and contributors on Fox News Channel aswell as Liberal ones on MSNBC. Most of them agree that he's gone.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-29 20:34:27

#1372979 by Agent204 Donor

(Loud Mr.Miagi) at 2011-01-29 22:11:28 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

I just hope they have a plan when it's all over. Dictators have a tendency to be replaced by dictators.

#1372991 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-29 23:27:47 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Agent204 wrote:

I just hope they have a plan when it's all over. Dictators have a tendency to be replaced by dictators.

Yeah you're right.

They are fed up with mubarak, keeping him is not an option, Lets just hope that the egyptian people take this chance to make their society better. Lets hope the muslim brotherhood does not get any significant power.

As for the United States, whatever happens it will end bad for them in this case. Even if a secularist takes power. They still link the U.S with mubarak.

And trust me, I am usually pro U.S and I like president Obama very much. The wikileaks show that Pres Obama has been pushing for social and political reform behind the scenes. So Anti-Americanists will still get a little rebuke because he has pushed egypt to reform without taking credit for it.

However in the end, I dont see egypt ever becoming such a close U.S ally as they used to be. No matter who takes over. The best for the U.S would probably be the military taking over, they still need the annual 1.5 billion USD in aid, and they have good relations with the U.S armed forces. BUT at the same time, they have credibility with the people. They have been handingh out food/bread.. etc when mubaraks regime has failed to curb poverty/rising food prices.

EDIT : I just spoke with some of our relatives in Egypt, they've restored the cell phone networks but not the internet. My relatives say that people were beaten and harassed by the police on the streets, just for standing there. They said they were tired of mubarak arresting and torturing egyptian opposition and other arab immigrants. People are carrying the dead bodies to bury them atm, people that have been killed by the police. Including 2 children and many teenagers. Mubarak has threatened to cut of the water supply :blink:

How on earth can people support this guy? :S While there are som legitimate worries about what comes next, they simply cant stand this guy anymore. The thought of him. And when they finally want freedom, nobody wants to help them because of fear of the SOME people in the opposition. The world needs to understand that cant you support a brutal dictator that imprisons, tortures and kills his own citizens. Has it crossed peoples minds that maybe the only reason islamists MIGHT take power, is because this guy has managed to supress everyone else, and many nations in the world have backed him? Hillary Clinton has said along with Stephen headley that these corrupt authoritarian regimes and driving the people in the region towards more extremist elements.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-29 23:40:17

#1372997 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-01-29 23:54:10 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

However in the end, I dont see egypt ever becoming such a close U.S ally as they used to be. No matter who takes over. The best for the U.S would probably be the military taking over, they still need the annual 1.5 billion USD in aid, and they have good relations with the U.S armed forces. BUT at the same time, they have credibility with the people. They have been handingh out food/bread.. etc when mubaraks regime has failed to curb poverty/rising food prices.

As you point out the only reason they are an ally is we are paying them to be. Dont forget they were in the Soviets pocket during most of the cold war.

#1372999 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-30 00:03:50 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Awesome..those protesters sure did show Mubarek by breaking into the National Museum, pulling the heads off of a couple of mummies and smashing up the place..I bet Mubarek is packing his bags right now...........and burning the party headquarters into a burned out husk of a building that could fall onto the museum next door.....brilliant :rolleyes:

How fucking stupid do these people have to be to see they are only hurting themselves?

As I said before...some people are too stupid to be allowed to make choices for themselves.

#1373003 by unknown[386359] at 2011-01-30 00:25:19 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

I wonder what will happen to the annual 1.5 billion dollars in US military and economic aid should an "unfavored" leader be appointed. With the US having helped arm Egypt to the teeth, I'm sure many folks on capital hill are sweating their socks off.

I think it's sad that people are having to board up their homes and shops to protect themselves from their fellow civilians. Why do "peaceful protests" always turn into looting and destruction? I've been reading up on the news and what these people are protesting for. I hope they get the way of life that they seek, but by taking part in violent protest they are only hurting themselves and their economy.

#1373007 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-01-30 01:13:21 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

How fucking stupid do these people have to be to see they are only hurting themselves?

As I said before...some people are too stupid to be allowed to make choices for themselves.

I knew somebody would bring that up. Great

Egypt is a country of almost 80 million people. Its in turmoil. They have no internet, unemployment is extremely high. Half the population live in poverty. Water is scarce..etc

On friday, there were some guys who looted the national museum yes, however they were not protesters. Because when the protesters found out. They all went to the museum to stand and protect the museum. The army AND the protesters have formed a long chain and they are now protecting the museum. Just because some looters/idiots in a very poor country of 80 million people with no police did something, does not mean the entire protest movement are for it. As someone mentioned earlier, this is not coordinated by one group or one ideology.

AND many protesters and army officers have formed along chain, holding hands outside the museum to protect it. The army and some protesters have went to protect the pyramids in giza now too.

I knew there was going to be some loot, because after all in a country of 80 million living in poverty without a police. I dont know what you're trying to do here VBG. Its obvious this guys were just a bunch bandits, because now, for some time the protesters have been protecting the museum. Poor protesters, without any food or money are standing to protect the museum.

I'd say these people are not too stupid to make choices for themselves.

As a response to Nazca1peru and VBG, if a brutal dictator of 30 years would have harassed and brutally beat your family/realtives and allowed no freedoms, would you care about what others think?

Hurt their economy? Seriously? 90% of those under 30 are already unemployed? They have no internet, no tv. So hitting the street is the only option for them. Atleast they diserve a chance to pursue their OWN futures. They have aspirations too!, aspirations that were not met by the dictator and his regime.

I remember when this happened in Iran 2009.Back then everybody was supporting the downfall of the ayatollah movement. But now too many are silent because this is a u.s. ally. and because it would be bad for israel.

You dont know what its like to live there, under such a regime. I have spoken to my relatives and they cant stand it. Period.

Hopefully something good happens after this. Anyways Egypt is the largest arab nation, they deserve to choose for themselves like any other nation. THE ONLY reason, people are standing on mubaraks side, is because this is a close U.S. ally. Personally, I hope he dies along with that new VP suleiman, who is directly responsible for all the kidnappings and murders his "security services" has done. If you support one of the worlds worst dictators for 30 years, this is what you get. It was only a matter of time before it backfired. Even if mubarak doesnt fall, it will still have backfired.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-01-30 01:14:21

#1373010 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-01-30 01:33:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

I remember when this happened in Iran 2009.Back then everybody was supporting the downfall of the ayatollah movement. But now too many are silent because this is a u.s. ally. and because it would be bad for israel.

Hmmm you seem to be mistaken. The only reason I would support the deposing of the Ayatollah IS because it would be good for the US, for peace in the region as it has and will remain a destabalizing force in the Middle East. Now I do not say that Mubareks rule is correct and I am not saying the things he has done are right. I also agree that after 30 years of rule it is beyond time to establish a democratically elected government. But above and beyond that it's important that the country does not go the way of Islamic fundamentalist rule as it is bad for everybody involved. Turkey's military used to guarentee a secular government and I think that the Egyptian military should as well.

I would not be opposed to a transition of power, the clear setting of an election with UN observers to guarentee fairness. What I object to is this ridiculous act of rioting in the streets, burning buildings (your friendly protesters DID burn down the ruling party hq which in turn IS actually endangering the Museum) and general lawlessness.

The only reason for this is the percieved effectiveness of these actions in Tunisia recently which has emboldened the Egyptian people.

#1373012 by unknown[386359] at 2011-01-30 01:58:52 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

As a response to Nazca1peru and VBG, if a brutal dictator of 30 years would have harassed and brutally beat your family/realtives and allowed no freedoms, would you care about what others think?

It's not a matter of caring what others think. I didn't say what they are doing is bad, I hope they get the life they want and deserve. At any rate, 30 years is too long for anyone one person to rule a country, even if he is only a president.

dodeliatcha wrote:

THE ONLY reason, people are standing on mubaraks side, is because this is a close U.S. ally.

Well yea, the US has been floating billions of dollars a year into Egypt's economy. Would removing this aid help or worsen the peoples situation?

dodeliatcha wrote:

Personally, I hope he dies along with that new VP suleiman, who is directly responsible for all the kidnappings and murders his "security services" has done. If you support one of the worlds worst dictators for 30 years, this is what you get.

You hope Egypt's president and vice president dies ? Doesn't that make your opinion of the current state a bit biased? BTW, hasn't Mubarak fired his staff/council since these protests started? I think that's what I read.

I am curious as to where you are pulling these numbers from. 20.136 million people in Egypt have internet access, as of 2009. That's one in four people, far from "no internet". Egypt also has it's share of state-run and private-run broadcast media, so saying that they have "no TV" isn't exactly fair either. If I misunderstood you and that comment is directed at the governments involvement of the recent blackout, i apologize. One has to admit, the idea of restricting the organization of mass protesters isn't a bad idea. Limited access to mass communication, food, and water is a good way to quell any uprising.

As for your frequent quoting of unemployment rates, my country has the same unemployment rate (9.7%, 2010 est.) as Egypt, with my state actually being a few percent higher. The economy suffers during these times, but mass protest does nothing but worsen the situation by removing the additional sources income that help support the economy. Think about it - products, goods, and services are not being bought and sold. Stock markets are taking a hit. Tourism is now nonexistent. All of this adds up. The longer the protests continue, the worse off the people will be in the long run.

#1373028 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-01-30 03:38:25 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Been watching a bunch of videos of riots/protest and one thing that really sticks out is the complete lack of hot women like the Iran protests had. I cant be the only one of us who notices things like that.

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