Serious Chat > Palestine

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#667351 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-15 16:13:39 (6 years ago) - [Report]

gasto wrote:

So, the way I see it, no one 'lose' anything. Someone occupied it.

then you simply see it wrong...it was to be given to them. They would have had all the land that they are trying to get back now if they had accepted a peacful solution that was offered to them to begin with. THEY started the war...and that action and that action alone caused them to lose the lands that the UN had given them. Whether or not the occupation is illegal (I think it is) the Palestinians put themselves in the current situation.

#667367 by gasto Donor

(Power User) at 2006-08-15 16:36:48 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

Whether or not the occupation is illegal (I think it is) the Palestinians put themselves in the current situation.

Bottom line agreed, in some way. Because Egypt, and other countries put their hands on this too, and all the Palestinians that had been living peacefully before 1948, had nothing to do with this.

#667377 by basher99 (Power User) at 2006-08-15 16:51:57 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

gasto wrote:

So, the way I see it, no one 'lose' anything. Someone occupied it.

I do not agree with your view on this VBG apart from the illegal occupation, but that has been done to death. I would rather look at the here and now. The only way to reach any kind of resolution and peace is for a neutral body to negotiate between the two parties. I cannot be the US or UK government or even the UN (there track record proves that). Who would the Palestinians and Israel trust to broker a settlement (excuse the pun) and have the authority? That is not an easy question to answer...

#667386 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-15 17:05:38 (6 years ago) - [Report]

gasto wrote:

VeryBadGUy wrote:

Whether or not the occupation is illegal (I think it is) the Palestinians put themselves in the current situation.

Bottom line agreed, in some way. Because Egypt, and other countries put their hands on this too, and all the Palestinians that had been living peacefully before 1948, had nothing to do with this.

Absolutely agree with you...that other countries played as big a part in it as well.
That is one of the most difficult things about this entire mess..it is easy to find an amount of blame in almost every party that had a hand in it. Israel, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Jordan and now Iran..USA, UK, UN etc etc etc. The fact is that we should all stop trying to figure out who caused the problem and work towards an actual peacful solution that gives all parties what they most want..and both need to compromise with the other by giving up things that they feel they must have until peace if made.

basher99 wrote:

A difficult question ineed given the fact that an Arab country like Palestine will not trust a non Muslim country to protect their interests..much like Israel would never allow a Muslim country for the opposite reasons...

China?

#667391 by unknown[105549] at 2006-08-15 17:14:02 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

*shivers*

One thing i really don't understand, is why isn't the other Arabic countries helping Palestine?
Everyone is saying US is helping Isreal etc etc.

But why isn't any Muslim country helping them?

#667401 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-15 17:38:45 (6 years ago) - [Report]

3lastic wrote:

But why isn't any Muslim country helping them?

because last time they did they put them in the shit?

I think you will find that a lot of muslim countries give loads of financial aid to the palestinians. And they have tried many times to bring resolutions to the UN security council condemning Israel for many things only to have them vetoed by the US.

I'm not actually all that sure that peace between Palesting and Israel is what a lot of Arab nations want..they would lose their easy scapegoat...they would have to start blaming someone else for all their failures etc...right now it's so easy to just blame Israel when of course they themselves have failed to bring financial prosperity/education etc to their own countries thru their own mismanagement.

#667477 by basher99 (Power User) at 2006-08-15 19:48:31 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

3lastic wrote:

But why isn't any Muslim country helping them?

I think that is a valid point. Nothing like perpetual war or a scapegoat to make the masses ignore their own corrupt governments and their complete disregard of domestic policy and contempt for their people.

As for the peace broker i gave up on that one, it was giving me a headache. :???:

#667654 by unknown[3295] at 2006-08-15 23:40:41 (6 years ago) - [Report]

rehovot wrote:

VBG is it fair when you fight an enemy with no address, follow the book blindly? The Kippur war was our last war against a real army. Since then, we are being attacked by an enemy which doesn't have to obey any rules and got no moral limits.. Do you really think it can be done? The American vetoes in indirect way balance this situation.

I didn't want to join in this discussion but here I go...
rehovot, there are about 7 million jews in Israel and a lot more over the world and about 6-800 000 palestines? Dude what the hell do you want? Half of them are women, then remove the children, the old and the sick. To be optimistic about 20-40 000 soldiers without training. Do you want to line them up and shoot them or precice bomb them for fun? They don't have any other chance to fight back.

Someone stated that jews were sent to Israel. In Soviet Union for example Jews were granted a right to visit Israel (and to stay there), but everybody else couldn't even go to next door Finland.

As stated in the bible Jews were slaves in Egypt, Israel should have been founded there because they had been inhabitants there before.

Thomas1234, very informing posts, got your facts straight. The "jewish" counterstrike was babbling without proof.

I hope this issue will be settled as soon as possible, preferrably stripping the nuclear capability from Israel first. The kidnapped 2 soldiers were just an excuse for war like the death of Franz Ferdinand. I think the founding of Israel was a bad choice because it caused and causes trouble and the jews are still good within other countries. People are prejudiced towards gipsies, soviets massmurdered them among others during WWII, but they weren't granted a country of their own.

#667659 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-15 23:44:03 (6 years ago) - [Report]

kults wrote:

People are prejudiced towards gipsies, soviets massmurdered them among others during WWII, but they weren't granted a country of their own.

bad example..gypsies are traditionally by nature people without a true home. Of course offering them a home would be stupid. And to be honest here in Italy they enjoy things that I do not...they are given free housing..they are given free water and electricity etc.

#667662 by unknown[3295] at 2006-08-15 23:57:21 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

gypsies are traditionally by nature people without a true home. Of course offering them a home would be stupid.

Well in Estonia gypsies are local, they own houses, realestate and the ones who live in my town have been around as long as I remember. Might vary by region I guess.

#667663 by unknown[77969] at 2006-08-16 00:00:37 (6 years ago) - [Report]

VeryBadGUy wrote:

basher99 wrote:

Definately not China.

#667668 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-16 00:08:44 (6 years ago) - [Report]

kults wrote:

Thomas1234, very informing posts, got your facts straight. The "jewish" counterstrike was babbling without proof.

Ah, informing you say? Then perhaps you should visit those pages I posted as a response to his posts. Or just search the net to shed more light on those passages that are rather out of context and their actual meanings seem to differ from what Thomas said.

Anyway,

Quote:

Well in Estonia gypsies are local, they own houses, realestate and the ones who live in my town have been around as long as I remember. Might vary by region I guess

The thing is, the Soviets made the Roma/Gypsies stay that way. At least over here and in the neighbouring ex-commie nations, so I guess it's the same in Estonia, given the history Eastern nations had. They forced them to settle, something against their nature, which in turn lead to tension between the rest of the population and them. Sadly that tension is still present these days.

Sorry for the OT, but since you two touched that topic I guessed I'd throw in my two cents as well.

Last edited by DrevoKocour at 2006-08-16 00:08:58

#667670 by unknown[130928] at 2006-08-16 00:11:34 (6 years ago) - [Report]

gypsies here in holland generally live in "trailer" kamps , often includes actual houses though. and the reason they have a bad name is because many of them are criminals. hell they have a king who is a crime boss so i dont feel sorry for them being treated bad.. dont want to be treated bad .. dont rob people and commit crimes simple... most of em in holland have chosen to be trash and will be treated as such..

#667840 by unknown[132664] at 2006-08-16 09:28:01 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

rehovot, there are about 7 million jews in Israel and a lot more over the world and about 6-800 000 palestines? Dude what the hell do you want? Half of them are women, then remove the children, the old and the sick. To be optimistic about 20-40 000 soldiers without training. Do you want to line them up and shoot them or precice bomb them for fun? They don't have any other chance to fight back.

Does it gives them the right to kill innocent people?If they didn't have any other option I would understand but they come and say: we want A, B and C if not we will bomb you to death. I'll give a simple example from their demands...they say all refugees(from 48) must go back to their land even if it means Israeli cities like Haifa. This will simply mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. No country will agree to such condition which will cause to it's destruction..

They don't want negotiation and when we offered everything we could the refused. They cannot expact to get everything back.

#668407 by unknown[9349] at 2006-08-17 10:09:13 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

This will simply mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

And? Israel shouldn't consider itself or be considered a "Jewish" state at all, especially if it wants to be accepted as a 1st world progressive country. Didn't Hitler have a similar idea, with a different group of people? Why the world allows this blatant racism is ludicrous, although understandable given the card Jews play.

Why is it so important to keep Israel as a "Jewish" state anyway? Why not just be a country, like any other western country, but one with predominantly Jewish population (like Germany is mostly populated by Germans, but doesn't define itself by any religion or race, only nationality, and everyone is equal).

Its amazing how the oppressed always become like their oppressors when they get the power, and never understand the parallels, in fact using the past to justify their actions, and often using damaging evidence to come to the exact opposite conclusion then what most people conclude. Want an example? Read my debate with the Israeli in the thread about tactics. Everytime I used some point or evidence to come to a conclusion, he'd use the exact same point and evidence and just changed the conclusion (eg. I showed how ground troops would cause less casualties and at least reach the objective to make the Israeli border population safe, and he countered that ground troops would of course cause much more civilian casualties and be completely useless by not being able to reach any objective, lol. Of course I explained how I came to my conclusion...). Countries and leaders do this all the time in speeches, but individuals? wowz.

#668414 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-17 10:21:51 (6 years ago) - [Report]

I thought there are several other groups apart from Jews living in Israel already.

#668489 by unknown[132664] at 2006-08-17 13:00:00 (6 years ago) - [Report]

@Trypt. Your Idea of "ground troops only" is a fantasy. First Hizboullah uses civilians as a legitimate tool to fight the IDF. Few years ago in Qana village there was an UN camp and Hezbollah launched mortar fire near that location. One Israeli shell caused the deaths of 100 people in that camp.
The targets deep in Lebanon are more important which means we have to conquer the whole damn country if we want to achieve our goals. You're not suggesting that conquering Lebanon will cause only 1000 people dead?

ON TOPIC
You ignore one simple fact about the Jewish people. Judaism is the only nationality which religion and nationality cannot be separated. We treat Judaism as nationality. So every Jewish person becomes automatically an Israeli. It inflicts in our democracy. Since religion and state are not separated there are many laws straight from Judaism(Marriage between 2 Jews for example, Shabbat(Saturday) Peach...). We want to define our country by religion it's our right because we do not discriminate other non Jewish Israelis.

DrevoKocour- There are many non Jews in Israel like Arabs(1 million) and Many Christians. Their status is just like the status of any group in any other country. Also there are many Jews from so many countries there are 1 million Russian Jews, 100k Ethiopian Jews...It's in my opinion the most colorful western country.

As an Israeli civilian I don't want to risk my democratic rights and economical state by bringing so many muslim refugees.

#668614 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-17 17:29:25 (6 years ago) - [Report]

DrevoKocour wrote:

kults wrote:

Thomas1234, very informing posts, got your facts straight. The "jewish" counterstrike was babbling without proof.

In response to this part only.. DrevoKocour, do you think that I just sit on my chair and wait for GOOGLE to feed me ? No, you are wrong if you think that. The infos and quotes I posted are all from the main sources, and from different languages, + Some jewish friends, who were "Rabbis" in their past life, and confirmed all what I posted, I don't take my infos from a website, like your links, where a jew plays with the words to defense his faith . As I said before I can proove all my quotes are 100% true and they aren't out of context. For anyone who needs more info about this facts, just PM me. I won't repeat this response anymore in this thread.

#668648 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-17 17:58:05 (6 years ago) - [Report]

So why are there pages examining the text and providing reasonable explanations? Is it just 'playing with words' in order to defend their faith? So how are your accusations different? Apparently it isn't so clear or one sided as you present it. Are citations and translations from religious books, explanations and listing of several texts from those books that deal with the matter, rather than a bunch of individual lines you claim to be true, are those just playing with words?

Is http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/theft.html wrong? Is it made up? Playing with words? Seems to me it provides a reasonable explanation, a contradiction of what you stated, and no 'I have friends who were Rabbis and they confirm all what I said' stuff. But apparently you have better information about the terrible and unspeakably evli nature of this particular religion, the fact that you only blurted out a couple of lines, ignore everything else and claim how true you are doesn't really matter.

Not to mention the fact that people evolve, adapt to the flow of time, disregard most things that hinder them, that aren't relevant in the contemporary era, and the same goes for religious beliefs, books, teachings. I hardly think that a majority of religious people still sacrifice animals or conduct other rituals that might have been written in their respective religious texts thousands of years ago.

Last edited by DrevoKocour at 2006-08-17 18:04:27

#668661 by unknown[132664] at 2006-08-17 18:14:18 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas wrote:

This guy said it's allowed to steal in Judaism and later on he said he got some "rabbi friends". In what religion it's allowed to steal especially after it says in the 10 commandments it's forbidden?

Also he copy-->past all his quotes and later on claims he don't use Internet(Google) as a source.
Just Google one of his quotes and tell me what you think. Notice 2 strange things...All the quotes are the same copy(word by word)which means its the same source and the quotes are very local(few words sometimes).

Thomas wrote:

As I said before I can proove all my quotes are 100% true and they aren't out of context

Do you speak Hebrew? Or you gonna ask your ex Rabbi "friends". Open a thread about that subject and I'll explain every quote after reading the REAL source. And if you can bring a real person who speak Hebrew and can read a simple Aramic to check me, be my guest.

#668665 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2006-08-17 18:17:18 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas1234 and DrevoKocour feel free to start a topic on interpretation of religious text if you want to. In fact we encourage discussion and debate thats why we have serious chat, its just that starting new threads in other threads that we don't like.

Also I'm getting just a little tired of seeing people write that it will be the last time they will do this (be offtopic). If you know, and everybody do, that your post is off-topic - don't post !!

#668676 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-17 18:30:03 (6 years ago) - [Report]

rehovot wrote:

This guy said it's allowed to steal in Judaism and later on he said he got some "rabbi friends". In what religion it's allowed to steal especially after it says in the 10 commandments it's forbidden?

Everytime I see your reply, I notice your way of understanding. Re-read my post, I said "in their past", which means they aren't jews anymore, they no more believe in their faith.

Quote:

Also he copy-->past all his quotes and later on claims he don't use Internet(Google) as a source.
Just Google one of his quotes ...

When I say : I don't wait of google to feed me, that means I don't get all the information from the internet, I have the copies of your Talmud, in different languages, which confirm everything I saw in the internet. I asked this question before : How come this different languages all have the same meaning ? There is no difficulties to understand the text or to wait for an explanation for tem, anyone can re-read the quotes and see how clear they are. The Talmud has been translated by un-biased companies... Beside - as I said - the friends who were "rabbis" and confirmed them... I said if anyone is interested, I can give more informations in PM, but you both keep pushing links and some weakness.

Quote:

Do you speak Hebrew? Or you gonna ask your ex Rabbi "friends".

No I don't, the Past-Jews friends do, beside talmus isn't in hebrew, it is in aramaic.. jews beleive in 3 levels of learning torah and talmud: 1. the simple 2. the more advanced 3. the hidden aka Nistar. since Nistar or the hidden understanding is only known to the elders scholars their is a BIG degree of taqia amongst the jews.... So you said it before, you aren't religuious, which explains that you can't explain what is going on, untill you go through this 3 levels and discover your true faith.

Edit : Sorry hOG, I was typing this in the same time you wrote your above reply... Feel free to delete it if you want. I just respond to their posts.

hOGedit: No, I won't edit it out, but this is the absolute last reply from you that I want to read regarding this :hmm:

Anyone thinking of replying to the above - DON'T !

Last edited by hOG at 2006-08-17 18:38:59

#1527295 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2013-04-07 08:27:15 (3 months ago) - [Report]

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