Serious Chat > Palestine

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#665499 by unknown[125834] at 2006-08-12 17:23:16 (6 years ago) - [Report]

I though the mods say they would block this thread when it went offtopic. This thread went offtopic on page 1.

But i have to say, Thomas, you have some amazing posts, with proof and still people goes ignorente. I did not know about the facts you posted. I searched them and i found them correct. Realy amazing posts.

For those who doesnt believe his posts, "Read talmod and you will find everything posted of thomas true".

I noticed some people went harsh on thomas, out of nowere, someone call him ignorente, out of nowere, someone askes for source when the hole previous post of full of proof. Even the jews them self, did not accept the truth. Even tho, its mentioned VERY clearly in there holy book.

The country belongs to palestinien people. They accepted the jews til they turned there back on the muslim people.

Everyone, take care for now.

Thomas1234, again, amazing posts, you blew my mind off.

#665505 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-12 17:29:12 (6 years ago) - [Report]

hunoghun wrote:

The country belongs to palestinien people. They accepted the jews til they turned there back on the muslim people.

What Palestinian people. Those who lived there a hundred years ago? Or those who lived there a thousand years ago? Or entirely different people who happened to live in the region? Please explain.

Oh and by the way, a simple google search gives us this page – http://www.frum.org/talmud/index.asp – which, kinda, uh, looks at those quotes and kinda, well, puts them into context. And I bet anyone could take a couple of quotes from most religions' holy books and make them look like bloodthirsty and sadistic liars bent on destruction or domination of everything else. And while we are at it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud and http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/ might also help.

Last edited by DrevoKocour at 2006-08-12 17:58:31

#665529 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-12 17:58:03 (6 years ago) - [Report]

SlartiFart wrote:

VeryBadGUy wrote:

I hate to break this to you but the US did not create the problem between Israel and Palestine.

But I think they helped creating it...

Err once again the creation of Israel and the Partition of Palestine had absolutely f*ck all to do with the US. In fact early Israel was supported more by France than anybody else.

#665567 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-12 19:09:19 (6 years ago) - [Report]

The US still gives pretty damn much money for military equipment to Israel, and that's not really solving the problem is it? But giving the same amount of money and weapons to Palestine wouldn't solve any problem either. What would make things a bit better is if the US would stop giving money to Israel completely.

How much do they give? 150 million a year?

#665571 by unknown[132664] at 2006-08-12 19:17:35 (6 years ago) - [Report]

People should be happy we got advanced army. Instead of bombing the whole neighborhood we use smart bombs. strong army=less civilian casualties.

#665610 by gasto Donor

(Power User) at 2006-08-12 20:36:59 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Yeah, I can imagine how advanced the army is, killing 1000 people in a month...
Please, cut the hipocrisy...I, as well as a lot of people here, accept the fact that Hezbollah uses terrorist methods...but you make it sound like the jewish state is the good guy of the movie...

Last edited by gasto at 2006-08-12 20:37:21

#665664 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-12 21:42:57 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Ok, first I am not going to response about Talmod part anyway although I can continue and show how true my quotes are... But it isn't our thread here, well I'll stay ontopic now...

Is occupied palestine a Palestine or "Israel" ?
What about hearing a jew ( actually he is a rabbi ) tells us that it is Palestine and "Israel" state shouldn't exist ? Well a witness from the jews themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE Click that link to watch!

EDIT :
Decided to add small comment... I don't care what reason this jew refuses the state of "Israel" but I wanted just to show that even groups among the jews aren't happy with the situation and not only the billions of the people around the globe.. And the fact is, among jews there are different groups who can't live together in peace sometimes, how do you expect from others to live in peace under their laws then ?

#665729 by unknown[73661] at 2006-08-12 23:13:55 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas1234 wrote:

excuse me... but this is kinda lame.
first of all, every group (social, religious etc...) has dieferent people in it with dieferent points of view and thoughts. so u look for those who think israel shouldnt exist (for a reason which doesnt concern the recent events) to say what? u can find those kind of people in every group or country...
and before ull ask about it, i can asure u there r no invisible wars (physical) between those groups and other jews. arguing is allowed in judaism...

second, those extremly orthodox people belive that the state of israel shouldnt exist because in the bible it is said that the jewish people should not come back to the land of israel until the messiah will arrive... and as u know jews did come to israel for known reasons which i will not mention since it doesnt concern the topic. so please dont mix unrelevant things.

#665758 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-13 00:07:36 (6 years ago) - [Report]

^^ Well it is not my business here to know "Why", I knew already why he refuses the word "State of Israel" and the whole land to be a jewish land - right now - and I added to my comment that I don't care about the reason... What I wanted to add to this thread is that a guy from your same religion who believes in judaism's faith - a rabbi - agrees the word "Palestine" and he even said it loud to deny the word "Israel" as a state. And it is the best way to hear it from one of your people and not from Palestinians or muslims because they don't accept the jewish state anyway.

TomEDIT: vvv This edit is response to DrevoKocour below me. I don't continue with Talmud part because the warning of VBG and not because I can't reply, I will be happy to continue if they allow me here. Besides, the members forced me to show this quotes when they went off topic, real the previous replies first.

#665765 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-13 00:24:47 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas1234 wrote:

Ok, first I am not going to response about Talmod part anyway although I can continue and show how true my quotes are... But it isn't our thread here, well I'll stay ontopic now...

Oh please, first you go off topic and make Judaism look like the worst thing on Earth and after sites that counter your claims are posted, you play a saint and say you won't go OT? Bah! Funny how you believe a Jew now (in that vid), something you apparently didn't do on page 2 of this thread, too.

Anyway, what do you suggest Israel should do? Should they simply cease to exist? Where should the people go then? Or what should they do?

#665780 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-13 00:53:56 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Another day..another thread way off topic and turning towards flames and insults. So this is the final warning in this thread...this was discussion over the land of Palestine not a thread to bash people's religious beliefs etc. :hmm:

#665785 by unknown[25495] at 2006-08-13 01:04:53 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Everyone needs to dump religion and get spiritual.

I dont believe any text of any of the 3 major religions, because it was written in a time when their was government and corruption.

I do lean towards the ancient Sumarian clay tablets written in Cuniform because they are the earliest written record of a civilized community. They were very spiritual beings.

All this land is a gift from god intended to be owned and used by all living things (shared equally)

"My land is your land, your land is my land.... etc.."

The main reason why people don't believe in the ancient Sumerian clay tablet records is because they record how they were genetically engineered by more intelligent beings (gods to them) (aliens)

People keep thinking that there is a difference between reality and fantasy, when in actuallity Truth is stranger than fiction.

As I posted in another thread we have 2 atoms across the world interacting with each other, we have certain matter that changes configuration or simply dissapears when we look at it.

Buzz Aldrin, the guy from Apollo 11 has said in a recently made tv documentary that he saw a UFO flying next to their spacecraft on his way to the moon, and he also says how the space agency told him to keep quit about that information.

In the bigger picture of things we have to ask ourselves are we simply tools created by aliens and their doctrines passed down through civilization to what we call religion these days, or is the picture even bigger whereas their is an ultimate godhead superior to the aliens that supposedly created us (humans) and that we should ignore doctrines and collectively find our true roots and our final destination.

All different types of species inhabit Palestine and just because we seem to be more intelligent than other living beings doesnt mean that we(humans) own that land. We are all supposed to share everything with each other, such as what were doing now in the information age, with satelites, tv, computers, phones and the internet we are sharing more and more "stuff" with each other, and sometimes we collectively form together to try and abolish Isolationizm.(where people believe that they are seperate from other human beings or living beings and they think they have an isolation effect where they disconnect themselves from other places, people, ideas, and things.)

I hope everything made sense to all who took the time to read. If it didn't re-read it or ask me to clarify something for you.

#665856 by unknown[9349] at 2006-08-13 05:04:50 (6 years ago) - [Report]

3lastic.

Its actually a pretty easy way to look at it.

First point: No jew that was alive at the time of Israels creation had any relation to any person that lived on that land in history, except on some superficial racial level which cannot be proven (the race I belong to occupied this land 2000 years ago, so I must have some relation, etc., type argument).

Second point: The people that lived in the future Israel at the time of its creation had absolutely no other homeland, and the only history they had was directly related to this homeland.

Third point: The people who lived in the future Israel were removed from the only homes they ever had, and ever remembered having.

Fourth point: A large percentage of the new jew population that settled the new Israel had absolutely no direct or indirect connection with the land, but connected with an ideal (religion).

So, morally speaking, there is absolutely no argument in favour of the jews, as opposed to the people that were removed.

Politically speaking, while not as black and white, the argument for jews is also very weak because the ancestors that did live there and were of the same "race" were also the ancestors of the Palestenian people that lived there before Israels creation, but more importantly, those ancestors were not the first there either, so the whole "we were here first" argument makes no sense. If that is the case, some group of people claiming to be the descendants of some nomad tribe that passed through Israel 6000 years ago could claim possession of the land, there would be no end to it all.

Clearly, the first two points above that I made are all that is needed to show who the land really belongs to.

However, we must bring things into perspective. Never before modern times have any groups of people who were more powerful then the other given a damn about what the rest of the world thought. Never before would regular everyday people debate endlessly about any of these issues, and then expect to be heard.

The reason this is such a problem is because the rest of the world decided to use power and create two sides, the "good" and the "evil", with completely artificial labels. Since the people coming to settle Israel were labeled "good", it didn't matter what tactics and methods finally made this land theirs, because any opposition is automatically labeled "evil". However, since the invent of modern media, more and more people have access to pure information and knowledge (ie. news and history), and have the means to create their own opinions and conclusions, and not take the words of authorities for granted. The clear line between "good" and "evil" has long been lost, and most people struggle with making sense of it all, realizing that in fact this is a big game being played out by the very powerful, with little regard for the players. We now also have the ability to draw parallels between many events in history and events of the present, and see that in fact history does constantly repeat itself, by design, on purpose. The point here is that this sort of thing (removing populations, settling) has gone on throughout history, but it was always localized, with one powerful nation invading another, with no outside interference or even knowledge of the event. What happened with the creation of Israel was completely different. The west decided to hear the sympathetic call of a group of people, and decided that their worth is ultimately larger then the people to be removed, without really thinking of the human consequences.

It just didn't make any sense to an average westerner 40 years ago why anyone would hold the opinion that Israel shouldn't exist, due to the lack of information and the control of knowledge. The brainwashing continued for so long that today, until the latest conflict, the whole debate about Israels existance died completely and in the rare situation that a figure who has the power to be heard tried to bring it up was labeled an anti-semite. Israel succeeded in opening this can of worms once again now with this latest conflict, so that intellectuals are once again debating about her right to exist, which I never thought I would hear again on mainstream newsmedia. Amazing really.

#665900 by skk (Power User) at 2006-08-13 08:49:24 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Sorry?
The problem I created?
I hate to break this to you but the US did not create the problem between Israel and Palestine.

You didnt follow what was said.

You accept that one side gets money, fine. You also need to accept that the US sends bombs and all that stuff to Israel as well. ALOT of it. For example when you hear on the news 'today israeli planes struck targets in the west bank killing 30 civilians' they should really be saying 'US planes driven by israeli pilots struck targets'.

therefore
When the US arms one side but not the other, then when they give money to both sides and palestine uses that money to attempt to arm itself as well, you cannot make the claim 'they [the US] refuse to continue giving them any money because they are buying arms'. why? because the US created the problem in the first place! by arming one side and not the other, obviously.

Also the official arguements are not that the US will not send money because there is a ton of corruption and that all the money goes straight into the banks of the people in power. The arguements are more around the 'misuse' of funds, namely investing in arms.

Last edited by skk at 2006-08-13 08:57:10

#666036 by unknown[77969] at 2006-08-13 13:58:29 (6 years ago) - [Report]

skk wrote:

Quote:

Sorry?
The problem I created?
I hate to break this to you but the US did not create the problem between Israel and Palestine.

Right...

I suppose Russia should start giving arms to Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan now.
Well in that case they should be giving arms to Israel too since they're providing arms to Iran and Syria.
Iran should be providing arms to Israel rather than Hezbollah and Palestinians as well.

Your proposition that "the US arming both sides equally" would solve the problem is nothing but a fallacy.

BTW...you STILL have not explained how the US created the problem in the first place; but I realize bashing America for anything and everything makes people look "cool" these days.

#666047 by basher99 (Power User) at 2006-08-13 14:26:27 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Ganth wrote:

Right...

America in my view should stop all the military aid to Israel. The billions saved could be invested back into America through schools,health care etc. It is American tax-payers money and this should be spent on them not Israeli weapons. Only humanitarium aid should be given to Israel.

Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

As for skk bashing America, i cannot speak for him but i would say from my interpretation he is criticising American Foreign policy and that is distinctly different from attacking the citizens of America who have nothing directly to do with this. Why people cannot distinguish from critique of governments and the people of a nation really puzzles me. If someone slams Blair and his cabinet or any other political party in the UK, i would not take as a direct attack on me or the British people.

#666101 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-13 15:41:57 (6 years ago) - [Report]

basher99 wrote:

Thats MY link! I posted it at least a half a dozen times in various threads already!

And to be honest I agree 100% with everything you have written here. IMO the benifits of giving all this "aid" to Israel creates more headaches than it will ever solve.

#666137 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-13 16:38:43 (6 years ago) - [Report]

I also agree with basher99, said it once before that they (USA) should quit supporting Israel, and I say it again.

#666155 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2006-08-13 17:21:04 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Why should they not support Israel, so they can be overrun and the US could loose one of its few allies in the region? Sorry guys, aint gona happen.

Palistinians, My god what a joke. They are nothing more than the barking dogs of their masters PERSIA. I find it very amusing at the thought of these Hezbullah leaders who are Arab even though they are shiite taking orders from their Persian masters like little dogs licking the boots of the Persian leaders. Imagine being Arab, and taking orders from Tehran. The Arabs hate the Persians more than they do the Israeli's, they have fought for over 2,000 years with Persia, and now they're nothing more than pawns in Tehran's bid for control of the Middle-east.

What do think will happen if Iraq goes through a civil-war and the sadr's take control, at first they'll be rewarded for their treason by their Persian masters but when then what do think will happen to them, they'll be neutralized by the Persians. How can Tehran trust you when you sold your own people out. It's classic Persian diplomacy divide and kill. The same thing is waiting for the Hezbullah leaders. Who do you think will give the mossad the info in locating these leaders? You guessed it, Persia.

#666190 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-13 18:20:36 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Who's said Tehran (Iran) rules the whole Middle East. Never heard of that. Only thing I've heard is that Iran supports Hizbollah with some rockets.

mbodnar wrote:

Why should they not support Israel, so they can be overrun and the US could loose one of its few allies in the region? Sorry guys, aint gona happen.

Why do they even need an ally there? And I don't think Israel would be overrun either just because the US stops supplying them.

#666209 by basher99 (Power User) at 2006-08-13 18:50:41 (6 years ago) - [Report]

mbodnar wrote:

Mbodnar do you really think that if the US stopped supporting Israel it would be overrun? Israel has a nuclear arsenal capable of destroying any threat to its sovereignty and not to mention its military. Israel's government do not give a damn about America you are only a means to an end. If Israel are such an ally then why was a huge spy-ring uncovered passing on classified documents and the trial of AIPAC for spying on the US in a court case which has been setback time and again?

Mbodnar your paranoia of Iran and its influence on the whole ME is on a par with Bush and Blair. Well you could thank the coalition forces by removing that murder Saddam then allowing the consequent chaos which allowed Iran to affect more influence in Iraq. Why do you not apply this line of thought to the influence of Israel on US foreign policy?

For example: take a look at JINSA and their former members who are in high profile positions in US government. Take a look at the Israel Clean Break document and who wrote it then compare this to the PNAC document and its signatures. Take a glance at the John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt paper on the Israel lobby. Then look at AIPAC with its 100,000 members and the donations they have given to congressman...I could mention more but it will not change your view that US foreign policy is NOT heavily influenced or some might say dictated by Israel and the question of, does the dog wag its tail, or does the tail wag its dog? Is not even open for discusion.
http://www.counterpunch.org/christison09062004.html
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

I hate to break it to you but Iraq is in a civil war.

#666243 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-13 20:29:39 (6 years ago) - [Report]

DrevoKocour wrote:

Bah! Funny how you believe a Jew now (in that vid), something you apparently didn't do on page 2 of this thread, too.

And where did you read that I believe him by posting that video ? I think I clarified myself enough when I posted the link.. I stand on my words, I don't take anything from jewish side, the link just for the people who think that only muslims or arabs are asking for Palestine, but the fact is much more than that, even among the jews there are groups who call for Palestine.

Anyway, great post Trypt, and I agree with you on that 100%.
I can form some of the points in your post into this picture :

On the left side, it is written :
I am a Palestinian arab. I was born in Jerusalem. Palestine is my Homeland but I can not return there.

On the right side, it is written :
I am an American Jew. I was born in USA. Israel is not my Homeland. But I can "return" there.

#666290 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2006-08-13 21:05:54 (6 years ago) - [Report]

basher99 wrote:

Mbodnar your paranoia of Iran and its influence on the whole ME is on a par with Bush and Blair

I'll take that as a complement. Thank you. ;-)

The Persians don't care whether your friend or foe, they will carry out their own agenda whether it's for or against an enemy. The Persians hate the Arabs and vice-versa but the Arabs are being blinded by Islam.

The Persians are using Islamic Fundementalism as a weapon to fool and lead the Arabs to their own slavery under Persian Rule. Almost every gov. in the Middle-East is controlled by Sunni Muslims who are in the minority. The majority of these populations which reside in these countries are Shiite muslims, but remember this they are Arab Shiites not Persian, and believe me that makes the greatest difference of all. Do you know that during the rein of Khomeni the only people that were persecuted in Persia were the Arabs. that's right, the Jews who lived in Persia were not persecuted under Khomeni, neither were the Americans who weren't part of the embassy staff, that were living in Persia. The Persians will stop at nothing in trying to overthrow these Mid-east nations.

The Persians have always believed in their own percieved destiny. Down thru history the Persians were conquered but they always have been able to rebuild their empire. The Greeks under Alexander the Great conquered Persia, after the Greeks, the Romans conquered them, then the Turks, and thru all of this Persia was able to overcome these great powers and was able to rebuild itself, now Persia has resurfaced and are doing the same kind of carrot and stick diplomacy in order to achieve it's goals. The diffenence today is the Persians are using religion to defeat it's Arab enemies and it's working, just look at Hezbullah a lap dog slave of Persia lickings Persian boots.

If your not paranoid of the rise of a nuclear Persian empire (like Tony, George, and myself) you ought to be. If this happens $3/gallon gas will be the least of our hardships.

#666310 by unknown[117853] at 2006-08-13 21:47:29 (6 years ago) - [Report]

mbodnar wrote:

...funny story...

Why is it that you laugh when someone blames bush for 9/11, but you're fully convinced of these kind of conspiracies? :lol:

I do, however, admit that persians are not always fond of Arabs.

#666330 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2006-08-13 22:17:12 (6 years ago) - [Report]

My friend its not a conspiracy, just a little history. I would think that you would have already known such things as an Iranian. Enjoy Shakespeare? What is past is prologue.

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