Serious Chat > Palestine

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#664139 by unknown[105549] at 2006-08-10 09:36:56 (6 years ago) - [Report]

When I view the replies of Islamic people on TB saying that the land “Israel”
Belongs to “Palestine’s” I always wonder why?

Therefore I seriously would like to ask this Question to them.

Do you think that

1) The people that lived there the longest owns the land?
2) The people that was there first owns the land?
3) The people that concurred the land owns the land?

Is a legit question no?

Because make sure history has no favor for the Palestine people.
How do you now defend that it is Palestine Land?

#664146 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2006-08-10 09:57:54 (6 years ago) - [Report]

A good point, the region changed hands many times during the history. Another interesting side note is that everybody who lived in the area is (was) a Palestinian, no matter what religion they believed in. It's similiar to how the word Semite is used nowadays, even though its actual meaning is different.

#664168 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-10 10:38:39 (6 years ago) - [Report]

OK..if this topic is for discussing in a RATIONAL, fact based argument about who the land belongs to then fine it can continue...the moment that it becomes a mud slinging, rant filled flame fest it will be locked and people will get red triangles

#664170 by unknown[113766] at 2006-08-10 10:41:15 (6 years ago) - [Report]

The land is palastinian, no doubt about that, and was "given"/ "taken" by the israelis a few decades ago.
The land is palastinian and will always remain palastinian, as far as im concerned its not israel, but the occupied palastine.

And this is based on what facts? Don't make this about your opinion..I have asked this to be about fact based arguments. Any more of this and the thread is locked :hmm:

Last edited by VeryBadGuy at 2006-08-10 11:02:33

#664268 by unknown[73661] at 2006-08-10 13:45:42 (6 years ago) - [Report]

A Brief History of Israel and Palestine and the Conflict

Hehe... a "bit" long... :-P

here u can find who sat in israel during the ages

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

#664376 by unknown[10614] at 2006-08-10 15:59:58 (6 years ago) - [Report]

One thing that bothers me though is the fact so many european jews were dumped in israel after WWII. I have no qualms about the land of israel belonging to the local jews. I don't think the local and european jews were related other than by religion, but I could be wrong.

#664384 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2006-08-10 16:09:26 (6 years ago) - [Report]

modan wrote:

actually they were not dumped..in fact the British restricted immigration to a certain amount..this in turn angered many jewish militant groups to actually try to make an alliance with Hitler (before he started executing Jews) and to attack the British military in control of Palestine at the time.

#664455 by unknown[10614] at 2006-08-10 18:43:50 (6 years ago) - [Report]

well you can call it immigration or whatever, but foreign jews were sent there, and you can't blame palestinians if they felt it was unfair.

#664479 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-10 19:14:16 (6 years ago) - [Report]

As far as I know the Jews came to Israel (the promised land) with Moses back in the days, so if you say the land is those who lived there first, I guess it ain't the Jews.

Christians have conquered it once or twice, but it ain't theirs either.

Overall I say no land belongs to anyone, and I don't understand why jews and muslims can't live side by side in Israel. Why does it have to be so hard?

#664489 by unknown[105549] at 2006-08-10 19:29:05 (6 years ago) - [Report]

negge wrote:

Overall I say no land belongs to anyone, and I don't understand why jews and muslims can't live side by side in Israel. Why does it have to be so hard?

Muslims society and foundation is not made for Democracy, humans whatever their gender,faith looks has same rights doesn't exist within Islamic foundation.

They follow the rule of Sharia, and thats far beyond democracy.
According to sharia, a normal Islamic family has the resemblance of dictatorship.
Where it starts from the Father.

Perhaps?

#664509 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-10 20:00:30 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Well I guess they need to drop some of their religious moral values then and start living like civilzed people do. Don't see why that's so hard either.

#664512 by unknown[10614] at 2006-08-10 20:03:23 (6 years ago) - [Report]

@negge, you nailed the root cause of the problem there. I didn't wanna get into it because it might start a flame war, but imho, religious intolerance is the source of this problem.

#664514 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-10 20:05:32 (6 years ago) - [Report]

So is it the jews or the muslims that are intolerant (or both)?

#664577 by unknown[105549] at 2006-08-10 21:32:32 (6 years ago) - [Report]

negge wrote:

So is it the jews or the muslims that are intolerant (or both)?

I never heard that Jews and Christians have problems, they have lived side by side for hundreds of years, any part of the world.
Nor have I ever heard Jews and Hindu, or other religions.

It has to do more with Education and respect, your are not a racist because of skin color or hair color, it is more how your attitude is.

Respect the laws in the country you live in, and Adapt as a guest to that country, and normally life is good.
Knowledge takes a long time, and behavior comes with knowledge.

And Attitude you can change over the night if you want.

#664578 by unknown[73661] at 2006-08-10 21:42:41 (6 years ago) - [Report]

negge wrote:

So is it the jews or the muslims that are intolerant (or both)?

i live in israel and i have arab friends... i have no problems with no-one (in general)... i accept everybody.
that is of course as long as they do not want to hurt me.
i can tell you that most of the people in israel want peace, and the government does it's best to minimize the social gaps between the arabs and the jews in the country.

p.s.-Haifa is well known to be a city that is populated by jews and arabs, and they live in peace beside each other. Just yesterday Nasrallah asked those arabs to get out from Haifa so they don't get hurt by his attacks, and they refused, because they oppose him. Furthermore, they call to hit him...

here's an article regarding that:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 … 80,00.html

#664583 by unknown[10614] at 2006-08-11 00:21:19 (6 years ago) - [Report]

negge wrote:

So is it the jews or the muslims that are intolerant (or both)?

I'd say mainly muslims (proof: there (edited, don't wanna get into another cyber argument) are not many islamic countries where minorities haven't been persecuted and driven away, the mullahs just can't tolerate kafirs and they always have enough support, I'm not saying 100% of muslims are like that, but enough are).

#664621 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-11 01:44:04 (6 years ago) - [Report]

3lastic wrote:

Muslims society and foundation is not made for Democracy, humans whatever their gender,faith looks has same rights doesn't exist within Islamic foundation.

All what you said about Islam and Islamic Sharia is totaly WRONG. First study the Islam (like I did) and then you can talk about it and don't let the hatred turns you to change the facts.
Do you know that the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said that all Human being are same (or equal) ? But if we look inside the judaism's -so called- (holy books) and their belief, they support the racism in all way by saying that their folk or nation is better than any other nation, and when they occupy any country, they have to kill and destroy anything in it, if the people who live in it accept them, they must be the jewish's slaves, else their men musst be killed ( the men of the land that has been ocupied by jews) and everything in it will belong to jews including the women.
I can quote all this from their own so called (holy book), but you'll never find such statements in Islamic Sharia or belief. In opposite of that, you'll find that the islam doesn't differ between any human, in any race , no matter what color you have, this problem (the racism) still exist in so called "modern countries', I won't mention here any country, cause everyone knows what I mean. The Occupied Palestine -where the jews live- supports that in all ways and faces, no wonder since its belief supports that, their land based on racism and violence.

Quote:

They follow the rule of Sharia, and thats far beyond democracy.
According to sharia, a normal Islamic family has the resemblance of dictatorship.
Where it starts from the Father.

This shows how ignorance you are about this religion, Sharia is "Rules" based on the Quran and Sunna rules, which supports giving everyone his right no matter from where you are or what religion you believe, punishs any crimes that can harm the whole country to decrease the crimes to the minimum so the people can live safe, supports the moral in all ways.
There is no statement in Quran nor in Sunna about the system you mentioned, th Sharia based on "Choosing the leader" by the folks, by the people themselves and not based on a Kingdom system. From the first day Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) died, the first Kalifa -Abu Bakr R.A.- has been choosen although he didn't want to be the Kalifa, And he told the people clearly : If I do right support me, and if I do anythin wrong correct me.
But This kingdom system - father then son or brother - has nothing to do with Islam, therefor the systems now in all islamic countries isn't from the Sharia.

Quote:

I never heard that Jews and Christians have problems, they have lived side by side for hundreds of years, any part of the world.

You don't know the history, the jews hate christians as much as they hate muslims, well maybe they hate muslims a little more. Again, their so called "Holy Books" contains enough verses about hating any nation and any other religion than judaism, including christianity, but they aren't idiots to show their hatred ( although anyone can see some examples of it ) toward christian because nowaday they need their supports, without their support they have never got a land. And as I said, I can quote examples of the hatred they hide toward all nations and all races except jewish race from their jewish belief and that they are allowed to do anything immoraly toward anyone who isn't jew, but not allowed if he does that toward another jew... You will never find such racism statements in the Islam

If you still don't know that when Palestine was still under the control of the Muslims -before the occupation-, there were Arabs ( and non-arabs ) from different religions, Islam, Christianity and judaism living in peace there without any problem. And if you don't know that the jewish started hating muslims from the beginning for no reason , just because the last prophet - whom they have been waiting for long time - isn't a jew as they expected... They lived in Medina among arabs who -I mean the arabs- later became muslims and prophet muhammed lived among them in medina, and jews were living there in peace untill they tried to kill muslims from their back while muslims were busy protecting Medina from a great attack by non-believer, then the muslims decided to kick them out of medina.

And if you still don't know that there are many jews who still live in arabic - and islamic - countries in full-peace, also the christians too, like in yemen - as example - there are villages and cities where only jews live in side by side with and among muslims without any problem, the jews there didn't decide to move to the Ocupied Palestine since they feel the comfort there, why should they put themselves in danger anyway.
The list is long, and I am tired, it is 2:40 in here. I wish you just learn more about anything before repeating something you don't know about.
And yes, th Occupied Palestine were called "Palestine" before the occupation.

#664671 by unknown[39869] at 2006-08-11 03:55:39 (6 years ago) - [Report]

3lastic

I want to reply your post with another reply.

Lets supose it was palestine rights to own that land,lets just supose. But something happened. Now Israel exists, thats a undennyable fact. Theres no turning back on this situation, both have to live with that, liking it or not. If one of them had the right for the whole area, this is past, now both have, and most important should respect each other.

My question is, why Israel have like 400 settlements on west bank? Take a look at this map of west bank made by united nations. This is just unbelievable.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … kjan06.jpg

#664673 by unknown[105549] at 2006-08-11 04:07:33 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas1234 wrote:

Quote:

They follow the rule of Sharia, and thats far beyond democracy.
According to sharia, a normal Islamic family has the resemblance of dictatorship.
Where it starts from the Father.

I am not even going to discuss this, I agree I generalized a little bit.
For that I apologies.

But when it comes to Sharia, I think you should educate your self a little bit.
Try:
www.nosharia.com

And if we stick to the topic, is there anyway you can answer thoose Questions?
It always fail no?
When you try to answer them?

#664676 by unknown[77969] at 2006-08-11 04:26:27 (6 years ago) - [Report]

It's unrealistic for anyone to expect all the land back...The same way that it's unrealistic for Russia to want to take Alaska back (the lease was only till 1965), or for the Polish to want a large part of Ukraine back. The absolutism applied to the Israeli/Palestinian land dispute is unprecedented in history.

It doesn't matter who the first to own the land was or who's been living there the longest.

#664714 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-11 06:16:41 (6 years ago) - [Report]

@3lastic:
I gave you the right definition of Sharia, if you want to know a definition of something, you have to go to the root of it and you have to know the language that the word came from, the best way for that is to ask Arab Muslims, because the word is arabic, and it is a word that has been explained in Quran and Sunna. In other word, the link you refered doesn't help to clarify the right meaning of this word because the site is against Sharia (Lol) how can you learn from people who don't accept this word. And you ask me to educate with this word ? I did, I studied arabic, islam and arabic culture. Here is more explanation of this word again :

Quote:

Shari'a is arabic word, comes from the root "Shar'" means "The way", it is noun, and the werb is "Shara'a".
Shari'a : Sharia is the law of Islam. It is based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunna. (Sunna : 1) The way of life prescribed as normative in Islam, based on the teachings and practices of Muhammad and on exegesis of the Koran. Also called hadith. 2) Prophet Muhammad's way of life viewed as a model for Muslims.)
As Islam makes no distinction between religion and life, Islamic law covers not only ritual but every aspect of life. The actual codification of canonic law is the result of the concurrent evolution of jurisprudence proper and the so-called science of the roots of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh). A general agreement was reached, in the course of the formalization of Islam, as to the authority of four such roots: the Qur'an in its legislative segments; the example of the Prophet as related in the hadith; the consensus of the Muslims (ijma), premised on a saying by Muhammad stipulating “My nation cannot agree on an error”; and reasoning by analogy (qiyas). Another important principle is ijtihad, the extension of sharia to situations neither covered by precedent nor explicable by analogy to other laws.

This is the definistion of Shari'a... But if you meant discussing what Shari'a contains well this will be joke because all what Quran and Sunna contain can't be discussed in a forum or few posts.
You mentioned that according to Sharia a normal Islamic family has the resemblance of dictatorship.
Where it starts from the Father. I don't know what you really mean with that. The woman has a value in islam if you ask me.
I became muslim some years ago, and I am married and have 3 kids, that means I am a father, noone - nor I - feel that I am a dictator ( LOL ) in my house.. Well I - as a father - have and know my unavoidable duty, so my wife she knows and solve her unavoidable duty, each person in my house knows his/her duty, the woman before islam was treated as animal, and then islam gave her her rights and valuable as a human, while we - in europe - were living in our dark age and we treated and described the women as devils or evil. Well as I said if you want to discuss what shari'a contains, I don't think this place fits for that.

About your main "On-topic" questions, well this has been discussed some times ago in the forum, if I find the link I will quote it here, it contains a historical facts about that region.

#664723 by negge (Power User) at 2006-08-11 06:42:32 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Kinda sad that you have to study religion to understand why two groups of people can't live together. This whole Palestine conflict is one of the most childish conflicts on Earth at this moment, can't believe grown up people in the 21st century can't live together just because of their religious status. What is simply wrong with some people? I hope all the people in the Middle East one day realize how childish they are and decide to live in peace. Until that, I'll just stand by watching them blow each other up.

#664724 by unknown[54181] at 2006-08-11 07:00:13 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Negge, if some terorrists attack your house and take it from you killing few of your family, then they force you to live only in a small room while the terorrists live in the rest of your big house, you wait for justice from the government, from the police, day after day, but nothing has been solved, what will you do after that if you aren't Cowardly ? That's what is going on in the occupied Palestine. The palestinians won't give up and will never accept the occupation as a right for jews. Well, it isn't really childish, but it is a crime through a wide door.

#664740 by unknown[39869] at 2006-08-11 09:04:47 (6 years ago) - [Report]

The problem is not just the ocupation. Its the hundreds of settlements, checkpoints, military closed areas, random bombings, closed roads, exclusive highways, barriers, arrests, selected assasionation, house demolishion and etc.

Thats not the kind of behavior you expect from a democracy.

#664743 by unknown[73661] at 2006-08-11 09:14:37 (6 years ago) - [Report]

Thomas1234 wrote:

3lastic wrote:

Muslims society and foundation is not made for Democracy, humans whatever their gender,faith looks has same rights doesn't exist within Islamic foundation.

Quote:

They follow the rule of Sharia, and thats far beyond democracy.
According to sharia, a normal Islamic family has the resemblance of dictatorship.
Where it starts from the Father.

Quote:

I never heard that Jews and Christians have problems, they have lived side by side for hundreds of years, any part of the world.

upon what r u basing those things?

I'm jewish, and i have a absoloutly nothing against christians or muslims (who are not radical) and im not hiding any secret hatred or whatever u r saying i do.
i don't know what is ur religion, and how much u know about judaism, but the jewish bible is the christian's old testament... and there are no such things written as u said.
by the way, chirstians couldnt be mentioned in it cause they simply didnt exist at the time...
last thing-arabs are known to be Ismael's descendants, and the jews-descendants of Itzhak and both of them were sons to the same father.

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