Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
<< Prev Next >>

This topic has been autolocked for inactivity. If you have something to add, Click Here to request it is re-opened.

#1416475 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-13 10:24:05 (2 years ago) - [Report]

SkeZa wrote:

TheBlues wrote:

By having an immigration policy that forces immigrants into the Swedish society instead of gathering in ghetto-like clumps, we will solve this issue.

You make it seem like it's a "one size fits all" solution to a complex problem. It is not as simple as you make it out to be. It is not only the immigrants that have to make an effort, it is also the current inhabitants. If the immigrants feel an isolation from the rest of society it will not matter where you put them, they will still try to find people that they can interact with. Those people would most likely be other people from their country, who also might have the same problem.
If you doubt me then just think of your swedish countryman Jackie Arklöv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Arkl%C3%B6v

Immigrants would be forced to interact with the natives on a daily basis, it doesn't matter if they seek out people of their own kind, since that would not negate their interaction with the natives. And you're not offering a solution when you say that current inhabitants need to make an effort as well. Should we implement that into a law? Let us focus on what can be changed through the immigration policies and laws instead of saying that everyone should be nice towards each other.

The Jackie Arklöv dude is a special case. He actually joined with a nationalistic party which would put him in the classic "Swedish Racist" category and not the "Unintegrated immigrant" one. If anything, that article proves that what I'm saying is correct.

#1416477 by VizlaN Donor

(Power User) at 2011-07-13 10:31:45 (2 years ago) - [Report]

About your discussion on Norway/Oslo: All assault-rape committed in the last xx years (Yes, 2 digits) has been comitted by immigrants, not every rape. And please take a chill pill and accept this for what it is, even our protect-the-immigrants-government has admitted to this.

Last edited by VizlaN at 2011-07-13 10:33:19

#1416495 by unknown[445176] at 2011-07-13 12:48:07 (2 years ago) - [Report]

With al the crappy foreigners here,. we Forget about our own crappy people.. which we have to much of also.

#1416507 by unknown[92931] at 2011-07-13 13:59:05 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Yes multiculturalism has failed, but so has colonialism. The time that you could force your ideas onto others because you found your ideas and morals to be more important and true is long gone. You can try to force it through laws. But it won't take long for it to backfire. Because minorities can clearly see all the special laws being made specifically to target their ideas and believes, while leaving the "Western" ideas in place. Do you think minorities are stupid donkeys and don't see this?

I don't tell you how to live your life, so I will not accept you telling me how to live mine.

#1416519 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-07-13 15:23:26 (2 years ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

dodeliatcha wrote:

Bullshit.. does that mean that neither Australia nor the United States can limit immigration with strong security checks and strict requirements? all americans have immigrant backgrounds..several generations...or one generation..doesnt matter..and they have no problem talking about immigration..legal and illegal..

Is this a reply to my post?

No it wasnt

I wasn't a reply to any post ;D

As for deviant47, yes immigration is limited..but I meant further limits.. such as.. take in only the ones that can prove their identity..or reduce immigration by like 90%..

stricter integration policies.. thats what I meant

And it is a fact..that the people of Sweden are tired of this immigration policy..wether we like it or not..dont you agree with me deviant47?

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-07-13 15:26:17

#1416524 by deviant47 (Power User) at 2011-07-13 15:34:48 (2 years ago) - [Report]

actually the question gets much more attention then the swedish people want, during the election it was ranked pretty low on a list of important issues and i agree with that fully. I do think its an important question but there is just sooooooooooo many questions that i find much more important. I dont really think that crime is such a huge issue here and even less crime due to immigration. The problem is blown out of proportion in my oppinion and its taking up too much time from other issues that i think is more important.

#1416682 by Urachez

(Power User) at 2011-07-14 11:22:38 (2 years ago) - [Report]

deviant47 wrote:

Stop reading Aftonbladet...

#1417100 by Sargoth (Power User) at 2011-07-16 13:29:36 (2 years ago) - [Report]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfS7s8PWidg&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iypk-YDaGgQ&

Quote:

African, who in the media described as "39-year-old" assaulted an elderly Norwegian couple, two conductors of which one was a woman and an American tourist.

The train that would go from Bergen to Oslo was delayed two hours to an African who went to the onslaught when he was told to show his ticket. The African's assault on the white people were racist.

Quote:

The man continues to fight and kicked at everything around him and yelling including "I hate white people" and "You hate the black man." By then, the African had also beat up an elderly Norwegian man, an elderly lady and a second conductor, a male one. The train stopped from going ahead and the police summoned.

One of the conductors said afterward that he got into the car and asked to see the man's ticket and then he answered that he had no money but that he would still ride to Oslo. The conductor then told that he must disembark in Arna, to what the man says is "racism" and flies at him.

Last edited by Sargoth at 2011-07-16 17:43:36

#1417204 by unknown[53735] at 2011-07-16 23:01:54 (2 years ago) - [Report]

The problem lies within the society of the native country, their inability to integrate people who come from abroad is based on your inequal treatment depending on race, this creates a social distance and in turn more problems, combined with the fact that you've imported your lower class so they can take the shitty jobs that you wouldn't do, making the income inequality gap an underlying factor for the social problem. But go ahead blame the immigrant, its easier.

- the story above my post clearly illustrates this, as the whole problem started with the fact that the man didn't have money for a ticket.

#1417208 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-16 23:23:51 (2 years ago) - [Report]

arabish wrote:

Wow, your post is so much shit. I never knew one could condense that much shit into such a small post. Even as I see written before me, I have no idea how it was done. Your post is a neutron star of pure shit.
What gives?

You could've argued that this was an isolated case and had no relevancy to the big picture. But no, you have to defend a man who went berserk because the conductor had the nerve to do his job.

Listen dude, they don't import the lower class. They take in either educated immigrants or families who flee from war. Education in Norway and Sweden is free so what's stopping these people from actually doing something worthwhile with their lives? I've never had any substantial amount of money in my entire life, yet I study at the most prestigious university in the country. And I did this despite the fact that my 'race' is stereotypically considered to be the most violent and stupid one.
Immigrants need to take responsibility for their lives. Society is a race and you won't win if all you do is complain about the rules.

#1417210 by unknown[53735] at 2011-07-16 23:28:57 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Oh okay if what im saying it "so much shit" then the reason for this must be non-westerners are pre disposed to being more criminal? Please enlighten us.

#1417211 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-16 23:32:00 (2 years ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

I agree that we should limit immigration and have a stricter policy on who we take in (I'm talking about Sweden and Finland) but you can't deny the irrational xenophobic arguments that (even intelligent) people use against the current immigration policies. Bringing forth statistics regarding rape and murder doesn't say much when you consider how many rapes there are in a country compared to the amount of immigrants. The sample sizes of the rapes and murders are just too small to have any scientific relevancy to this issue.

My mother was pregnant with me when she came to Sweden. We used to live in an area heavy with immigrants until I turned nine when we moved to a fancy and predominately Swedish area. I was the the only black child in my entire school and one out of two children with a 100% foreign ethnicity. So having both experienced both a shitty immigrant filled area and an area with no immigrants at all, I believe I have a relatively unique perspective on this issue.
And from that perspective, I see that ethnicity is a completely irrelevant factor in how well you integrate into society. I wasn't a very nice kid when I first came to the Swedish neighborhood. I was very aggressive and anti-social. It wasn't my fault though. I had been shaped by an anti-intellectual and rough area. Whether you integrate into society has only to do with the people you socialize with. And of course, a child will socialize with any and all nearby children. I know full blooded Swedes who grew up in bad neighborhoods, they turned out as foreign as the immigrants they live next to. And likewise, immigrants like me who grow up around Swedish children will turn out to be as Swedish as their neighbors. By having an immigration policy that forces immigrants into the Swedish society instead of gathering in ghetto-like clumps, we will solve this issue. Our generation might be screwed, but the next doesn't have to be.

Btw, shitty immigration policies don't only hurt Swedes (although I would probably not be robbed if I walked through a dangerous and immigrant heavy area). I, for one, am tired of people assuming that I'm a stereotypical immigrant when they see my ethnicity.

FYI, just because I say your explanation is invalid does not mean that I need to propose my own.

#1417214 by unknown[53735] at 2011-07-16 23:48:38 (2 years ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

FYI, just because I say your explanation is invalid does not mean that I need to propose my own.

No, if only you had an argument that proved me wrong. But you didn't. All you did was come with your own story, of how you became intellectual and now consider immigrants from your old neighborhood anti-intellectual(ie. dumber than you) you even agree with me that it has to do with where they live, poor people have a tendency to live in low cost housing project, its called inequality when they can't afford what the majority can - and that my friend leads to crime.

#1417219 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-17 00:12:32 (2 years ago) - [Report]

arabish wrote:

TheBlues wrote:

FYI, just because I say your explanation is invalid does not mean that I need to propose my own.

No, if only you had an argument that proved me wrong. But you didn't. All you did was come with your own story, of how you became intellectual and now consider immigrants from your old neighborhood anti-intellectual(ie. dumber than you) you even agree with me that it has to do with where they live, poor people have a tendency to live in low cost housing project , its called inequality - and that my friend leads to crime.

lol, I was always prone to classically intellectual activities. The new neighborhood didn't change who I was, it changed my mannerism. Also, having an anti-intellectual culture does not mean that they're stupid. It just means that being intellectual lowers ones status in their social ladder and thus is not seen as a good quality.

What I disagreed with you on was that they import the lower class and that racism has created the current situation. You blame society for the lack of education of the immigrants when school is both free and mandatory. There is nothing that stops people from getting an advanced education which leads to good jobs which leads to money with which they can buy apartments in nice areas. Society certainly does not stop them. Do you know that you actually get money from the government to go to school here? You also get a loan with a very low interest rate regardless of your economic situation. And that loan isn't even to pay the university fees (since there are no fees), it's there so you won't have to work while you study.
And finally, poverty in Scandinavia is not like poverty in America. A family on welfare can still afford computers and a steady internet connection. Whether or not they afford nice cars and Armani suits is completely fucking irrelevant, they can afford basic luxuries and then some. But yeah, sorry if logic and reason has temporarily hindered your irrational hate towards the western world. I mean, you're a Muslim who've been in jail for robbery, you will hate the western world regardless of what anyone says.

#1417224 by unknown[53735] at 2011-07-17 00:36:45 (2 years ago) - [Report]

The fact that education is free doesn't mean that people will take an education or succeed in taking that education. There might be an equality of opportunity but that doesn't neccesarily mean an equality of outcome, especially for the immigrants who have been socially distanced from the society around them due to socio-economic issues, and even racist experiences.

Quote:

I mean, you're a Muslim who've been in jail for robbery, you will hate the western world regardless of what anyone says.

Okay, what does this has to do with the topic?

#1417227 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-17 00:44:49 (2 years ago) - [Report]

arabish wrote:

And so we return to what I've been arguing for in this thread. It's all about including the immigrants in society. Anyone in a foreign country will seek out his countrymen which leads to clusters of immigrants. This is why immigrants feel excluded, it's not societies fault since they made the choice to live there. We must therefore strategically place immigrant families in areas with a high percentage of the native population

arabish wrote:

TheBlues wrote:

I mean, you're a Muslim who've been in jail for robbery, you will hate the western world regardless of what anyone says.

Okay, what does this has to do with the topic?

It has nothing to do with the topic but it has everything to do with the way you discuss the topic. You don't think, you just choose an arbitrary set of arguments that support your thesis. When one argument gets criticized, you simply discard it without thinking of how the removal of that argument changes your thesis.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now so I won't be able to reply for 8-9 hours.

#1417236 by unknown[53735] at 2011-07-17 01:28:21 (2 years ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

And how will you strategically place poor people in areas where they can't afford to live? As I said before immigrants take the low income jobs that the swedes don't take because they can get a better one, therefore the swedes live in places that are higher in value. Criticizing immigrants for not taking responsibility is just a easy way for society to blame "the others", obviously the solution to integration problem lies within the natives society and not at the feet of the immigrants. Even your own example of society(govt.) strategically placing immigrants agrees with this.

As for your second paragraph, sure.

#1417251 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-07-17 05:03:40 (2 years ago) - [Report]

There aren't very many "high class areas" here in Sweden.
I got a friend whos father is working a normal salesman job at at electronics store and is making about 25000sek a month before taxes and he live in a pretty fancy house which you would call "high class".
I live in an apartment complex with similar houses all around and it's a pretty nice area for a kind of concrete jungle, but just on the other side of the road there are villas and big fancy houses. There aren't any gated communities here, every area is open for everyone.

And there are plenty other people as well. When i've worked for my father (we change roof and other construction work) we get jobs from private people living in said houses and there are a lot of immigrants most of the time. How can that be, if they're so "expensive" that immigrants can't afford them how can they afford them, and even then also afford renovation cost on top of that?
The cost isn't a problem most of the time, it's just lazy people who don't educate themselves and start working, because if they did they would be able to live just like everyone else.
They've been spoonfed with welfare so much most of the time that they don't see the need to get an education and job since the government is just gonna throw money at them either way.

Also, even without an education you can get pretty well paying jobs, two friends of mine just got Hired at AstraZeneca as machine operators making about 162sek/hour before taxes. Which is alot of money for a job requiring no education.

Now, i know this isn't some scientific research with lots of data and stuff, i just want to show you how the situation is like, atleast in my neighborhood which is one of the towns that get most of the immigrants in Sweden and have lots of problems with immigrant crime.

Last edited by Snuffsis at 2011-07-17 05:08:43

#1417291 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-17 12:41:37 (2 years ago) - [Report]

arabish wrote:

Immigrants get welfare when they first arrive to Sweden. The government pays for everything while offering classes to learn Swedish and admissions to schools. But so far, the choice of where to live isn't really that restricted. Also, the price for an apartment in fairly immigrant heavy area is not that much lower than one in a predominately Swedish area. The immigrants live in their 'ghettos' because they feel at home there. If immigrants were to focus on learning the Swedish language, pick a place to live among the Swedes and then getting a proper education then there would be no integration problem. That's what my mother did and she was a single mother with three children.

I'm not placing blame anywhere. I'm just trying to find a solution to this specific problem. Whether the blame should be put on the society or on the immigrants is irrelevant. And also, my own example (it's not an example but I'll refer to it as such if you wish) does not put blame on the government, but since I can't change the way immigrants behave, I have to change government policies.

#1417540 by saladthumb (Power User) at 2011-07-18 14:30:18 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I agree, it's not only the approach to integration that fails, it's the unwillingness of many immigrants to be integrated.
Large parts of the turkish community in germany for example choose to build their own turkish community here; doesn't sound so bad, does it?
well, the way they go about it is.
it's not even coincidental; it's almost like the mafia, just not criminal. It's all a family thing. Different familys actually coordinate which places to settle, build there businesses there and emphasize on keeping it all turkish. In some parts of big citys almost anyone speaks turkish, there are still arranged weddings, they share among each other to strengthen their position, all with the goal NOT to be part of german society as it is/was.
Many don't teach thei children to speak german properly, as there is no need, they can provide them with jobs and everything later on.
When people don't want to be integrated, there's not much the government can do about it.

#1417622 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-07-18 23:01:27 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I live in Sweden..the welfare is unbelievable here..it's really good..

everything is paid for by the government..

You cannot possibly ask the swedish government to do more..and remember we want less government

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-07-18 23:01:42

#1417632 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-07-19 01:09:59 (2 years ago) - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

everything is paid for by the government..

Incorrect.

#1417649 by Belnick (Power User) at 2011-07-19 06:13:42 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Timex wrote:

dodeliatcha wrote:

everything is paid for by the government..

Incorrect.

I think he mean for the non swedish speaking swedish citizens

normal swedes pays for everything

Last edited by Belnick at 2011-07-19 06:13:53

#1417659 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2011-07-19 09:55:52 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Belnick wrote:

I think he mean for the non swedish speaking swedish citizens

normal swedes pays for everything

Don't forget that immigrants pay taxes too.

@Timex.
Off topic much? If you want to argue pointless semantics then you're free to start a new thread in which you can do so.

Last edited by TheBlues at 2011-07-19 09:56:15

#1417723 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-07-19 18:38:40 (2 years ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

@Timex.
Off topic much?

Nope.

This topic has been autolocked for inactivity. If you have something to add, Click Here to request it is re-opened.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
<< Prev Next >>

This topic is locked; no new posts are allowed.