Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1376078 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-02-08 16:35:07 (2 years ago) - [Report]

mbodnar wrote:

Our last place was in a new subdivision. Didn't much like it even though it was a great house with nice neighbors, the schools were the primary consideration when we bought. Once the kids were out of high school we got out and a Mack truck couldn't pull us back into suburbia. Now it's 20 miles to a gallon of milk and there's horse shit in the driveway, but we wouldn't trade it for gold.

I don't live that far out of town...but the town (county seat) only has about 2,800 people in it,durring the summer!
Mountain lions are the big issue here.

#1376096 by Inspiration (Power User) at 2011-02-08 17:45:45 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Sure, France and Britain messed up when they drew the borders back in the day. But don't think for one second that if they refrained from doing that, things would be different. Imagine they just left, or never were in Africa in the first place.
In such a scenario local tribes would play domination for whatever reason and commit genocide on rival tribes as well, just like they have now.

Don't forget most of the "refugees" coming to Europe are simply those who seek a better life. Something that would have happened with or without hastily drawn borders in the middle of previous century.

#1376149 by unknown[190316] at 2011-02-08 19:56:34 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Inspiration wrote:

Actually, the most famous African genocide, in Rwanda, can be directly linked to British colonial rule. The entire system of identifying people as either 'Tutsi' or 'Hutu' was created by the British and it was this internal division within Rwanda that caused the genocide. Obviously, there's no way you can blame the British entirely for the genocide though - they weren't the ones wielding machetes.

My point is that the drawing of borders and manipulation of national identity is a powerful tool and should not be underestimated. In fact, the Soviets were careful to draw the borders of the socialist republics (e.g. Azerbaijan) so that they fragmented ethnic and social groups. They felt, rightly, that a country that was not unified by culture or ethnicity would be less capable of creating a cohesive nationalist movement. The effects of these policies have been shown by the ethnic conflict that occurred in many former-soviet countries after the collapse of communism (particularly the -stans)

#1376162 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2011-02-08 20:49:12 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I think you meant Belgian colonial rule, not British. I have seen Hotel Rwanda and that makes me an expert. On a more general note I'm still not entirely sure about this whole argument for history being a valid reason for troubles today... I mean... a reason yes, as the past influences the future obviously, but definitely not an excuse or anything of the sort.

#1376177 by unknown[190316] at 2011-02-08 21:38:07 (2 years ago) - [Report]

DrevoKocour wrote:

No, it was the British. I'm not excusing anything that's happening today, I'm just pointing out how actions can reverberate through history and cause (or at least contribute to) future events. There's certainly no point wasting time feeling guilty or responsible for these atrocities but that doesn't mean we can ignore the causes either.

#1376181 by DrevoKocour (Power User) at 2011-02-08 21:47:00 (2 years ago) - [Report]

You sure about that? Rwanda was first colonized by the Germans and then the Belgians...

#1376186 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-08 21:57:59 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Timex wrote:

Mountain lions are the big issue here.

We've got bears, and lots of 'em. Fortunately they are mostly interested in berry's and garbage, so as long as you don't pass between a mom and her cubs they don't bother you.

#1376189 by unknown[190316] at 2011-02-08 22:11:57 (2 years ago) - [Report]

DrevoKocour wrote:

You sure about that? Rwanda was first colonized by the Germans and then the Belgians...

~~I'm pretty sure that's what my lecturer said but maybe I misremembered or she made a mistake.~~

Actually, just done a quick google search and maybe it was the Belgians. Belgians...British...kinda sounds the same :whistle:

Edit: As I'm British I should probably be relieved that there is one less genocide attributable to us!

#1376214 by unknown[76452] at 2011-02-08 23:57:31 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Just throw them out of your country, every single one of them, put them on a plane back to where they came from.

To be honest, there is no other solution.

"Hey, poor people fighting against each other" - oh lets take them here into our country and let them live together here - jolly good idea sir lets do that.

You cant mix so many different cultures and so many different religions, it just doesnt work. Especially when we talk about the stoneage women hating religion Islam.

#1376249 by neigan (Power User) at 2011-02-09 04:14:50 (2 years ago) - [Report]

tomati wrote:

Just throw them out of your country, every single one of them, put them on a plane back to where they came from.

To be honest, there is no other solution.

That's the worst solution ever, paying billions upon billions for planetickets sending them back so they can "try again".

We should obviously take the money immigration is costing is now and invest it in the pisspoor countries they came from(im not saying give, I said invest), thus there is no reason to come here in the first place.

#1376252 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-09 04:45:13 (2 years ago) - [Report]

neigan wrote:

We should obviously take the money immigration is costing is now and invest it in the pisspoor countries they came from(im not saying give, I said invest), thus there is no reason to come here in the first place.

Isn't that what the West has been doing? I remember reading somewhere that in the last fifty years we've (US) given Africa ten times the amount of money given Europe through the Marshall Plan. I would bet even more than that.

Also, your so called solution doesn't address the problems European countries are currently facing with the immigrants already there. If you hate the West and do not like our culture or way of life, and if you do not want to abide by the laws that have been in place in these countries long before these immigrants immigrated there, then they should be sent back from whence they came. That is the only viable solution. Pumping more money into corrupt governments will solve nothing. The last fifty years of welfare/investment in third world countries has proven this.

And it is quite ridiculous to suggest the way to solve the immigration problem is to invest money into poor countries. The governments of Europe/US have almost full control over who enters their country, especially those from the Middle East. Investment is not necessary. STOP LETTING THEM IN!

#1376253 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-09 04:50:01 (2 years ago) - [Report]

neigan wrote:

tomati wrote:

Just throw them out of your country, every single one of them, put them on a plane back to where they came from.

To be honest, there is no other solution.

Let them pay for it themselves, or better yet don't let them in in the first place.

#1376261 by unknown[13572] at 2011-02-09 06:35:49 (2 years ago) - [Report]

I definitely have a problem with multiculturalism although not quite the way it seems to be being described in this thread. The way Cameron & Merkel describes the problem is probably what a lot of us were thinking, immigrants should be integrated into society and not form these isolated communities. I personally didn't know too many who weren't integrated or trying but I knew a few. It was particularly obvious when I was a child and friends parents weren't enthusiastic or plainly didn't want us hanging out.

If you dislike a countries culture or it scares you & you dislike their values, if you shudder at the thought of your child one day behaving like 'them' or even worse marrying them then perhaps you should reconsider immigrating imo.

That said I've never had a problem with a Multi-ethnic society. Really quite miss having a mixed group of friends which I haven't really had since College, my fault though haven't really made any real mates since that time.
Growing up in London it was just natural it always felt that our families were very different but we weren't.

#1376262 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-02-09 07:40:46 (2 years ago) - [Report]

mbodnar wrote:

Timex wrote:

Mountain lions are the big issue here.

We've got bears, and lots of 'em. Fortunately they are mostly interested in berry's and garbage, so as long as you don't pass between a mom and her cubs they don't bother you.

We have bears also,most in the county newspaper that comes out 1 day each week seem to be around California Pines.
Out on my side of the town the big cats along with bobcats and packs of coyotes are the issue.
When it snows the Montain Lions leave tracks around the outside of the house.
They like to eat the livestock and pets.

I never go outside without my sidearm.

#1376268 by Sargoth (Power User) at 2011-02-09 09:17:01 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quickblood wrote:

http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/qed/20 … ntegration

Quote:

The Straits Times on the claim by Lee Kuan Yew, published in his new book Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going, that Muslim integration in Singapore is failing:

MM's [Minister Mentor's] remarks on integration draw flak

In the book, Mr Lee, when asked to assess the progress of multiracialism in Singapore, said: �I have to speak candidly to be of value, but I do not wish to offend the Muslim community.

�I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came, and if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration - friends, intermarriages and so on, Indians with Chinese, Chinese with Indians - than Muslims. That�s the result of the surge from the Arab states.�

He added: �I would say today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam.�

He also said: �I think the Muslims socially do not cause any trouble, but they are distinct and separate.�

Mr lee then went on to speak of how his own generation of politicians who worked with him had integrated well, including sitting down and eating together. He said: �But now, you go to schools with Malay and Chinese, there�s a halal and non-halal segment and so too, the universities. And they tend to sit separately so as not to be contaminated. All that becomes a social divide.�

He added that the result was a �veil� across peoples. Asked what Muslims in Singapore needed to do to integrate, he replied: �Be less strict on Islamic observances and say �Okay, I�ll eat with you.��

�

Right-wing Malay rights group Perkasa slammed Mr Lee, saying he seemed to be adapting the same tactic as non-Muslim opposition leaders in Malaysia who raised sensitive issues without bothering about Muslim sensitivities.

Perkasa secretary-general Syed Hassan Syed Ali said: �Perkasa does not consider Lee Kuan Yew as being less able to respect other religions, but instead consider him a very senile old man.�

...

A reader on the Jakarta Globe website wrote [on Lee's comments]: �Funny, if you say the same thing in Europe, you will be crucified. At least somebody who is calling a cat a cat.�

Source: The Straits Times, January 26, 2011

This is happening in other parts of Europe as well and not only Singapore we have immigrants whom band together during work, recess and whatever else, speak in their own language, shutting everyone else out not giving them a chance to become part of the conversation.

Also from observations Arabs tends to be very racist towards Africans, Pakistanis, and Indians, You'll most likely only see Pakistanis and Indians doing the "dirty" work in such "culturally rich" developed backgrounds since they consider them to be "low grade workers", where it hasn't even been 50 years since slavery was abolished.

Last edited by Sargoth at 2011-02-09 09:19:32

#1376271 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-09 10:14:06 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Exactly what we have been doing for ages now. But the money we have been sending are now in their politicians and militar leaders personal bank accounts. Just look at mubarak, he has near 100 billions in offshore real estaments etc. and yet USA and many european countries have been sending billions aid money to egypt. Same thing with every single arfican nation, every single one.
It's pretty hard to try and help when they don't even care about their own people, no matter how many "governments" or leaders they chance, it's always the same, I think mandela could be the only black politician in the continent of africa who actually cares about his people and puts them before personal benefitting of the position.

#1376272 by j42 (Power User) at 2011-02-09 10:14:54 (2 years ago) - [Report]

So, let's assume, multiculturalism really has failed in Europe.

Arguing about whether or not that statement is true, is all fine and dandy.
But how would you change it, without violating human rights, to begin with?

#1376273 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-09 10:51:50 (2 years ago) - [Report]

j42 wrote:

1. Less free money.
2. More deportations, those who brake the law (not shoplifting etc.,but crimes which give you time in jail) wil be thrown out.
3. More requirements when you come in. Ie. You have certain time to learn the basics of the language and the culture + women can't get pregnant in this period,that prevents them from filling these obligations.
4. Taking immigrants from areas where we have immigrants who are known to integrate
5. Let's stop kissing muslim asses and treat their religions as we treat other religions, no special priviledges
6. Much less immigrants until the current situation is in better shape.

Just to name few.

#1376310 by j42 (Power User) at 2011-02-09 13:39:36 (2 years ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

1. agreed
2. just passed the vote in Switzerland (where i happen to live), although i disagree with that kind of mind set, everyone should be treated the same in front of the law. but i admit this is a hot topic and not so easy dismissed.
3.i would say the "woman can't get pregnant" part is probably hard to do. For example, what if they already are pregnant? otherwise i agree, i also think thats already the case in some countries, at least i thought so.
4. this one is complicated. here in switzerland we had a lot of italian immigrants about 30 to 40 years ago, in the beginning everyone was complaining about how they would not migrate and seperate themselfs. nowadays they are used as a prime example for integration. and i strongly disagree with the notion that an area = people.
5. freedom of religion. every religion has it (mostly).
6. agreed

#1376315 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-09 13:52:37 (2 years ago) - [Report]

Quote:

although i disagree with that kind of mind set, everyone should be treated the same in front of the law.

Ofcourse if you have citizenship, but if you don't have yet (like many of the crime committers do), then you are thrown out after your jail time.
With citizenship naturally same laws apply,own citizens are not deported.
Also criminal past should have an impact when dealing citizenship, always.

Quote:

freedom of religion. every religion has it (mostly).

Ofcourse, but no special treatment for any religion (like muslims now get), everybody is treated equally, no matter what religion.

Quote:

this one is complicated. here in switzerland we had a lot of italian immigrants about 30 to 40 years ago, in the beginning everyone was complaining about how they would not migrate and seperate themselfs. nowadays they are used as a prime example for integration. and i strongly disagree with the notion that an area = people.

People in same area usually share the same culture which is the main reason for failure in integration.
Naturally every immigrant should be treaten individually when they enter the country, but if no special reasons are provided (for example a gay guy from somalia who's life is in danger), you are declined since the previous immigrants from that area don't have integrated at all.
Coming from certain area does not equal automatic disqualification, but unless you can't provide a good reason, you are disqualified.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2011-02-09 13:53:50

#1376323 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-09 14:12:15 (2 years ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

freedom of religion. every religion has it (mostly).

Ofcourse, but no special treatment for any religion (like muslims now get), everybody is treated equally, no matter what religion.

Is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, your country's national church, like The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark is it.. in Denmark (that is supported by the constitution)?

Last edited by hOG at 2011-02-09 14:17:56

#1376324 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-09 14:16:49 (2 years ago) - [Report]

The problem is, you can't deport citizens of your own country. If an immigrant has a finland citizenship and nothing else even though he is born somewhere else., then he is by national and international law a guy from finland

(this is not directed to snpierfin, just an example for others to read)

In switzerland 60% of the inmates are non swiss nationals (they have citizenship elsewhere that is..) which absolutely crazy :S I think its really weird that people can stay when they do crime like that..

so yeah sniperfin, you are right again this time..

The Swiss government believes mandatory deportation could violate Switzerland's obligations under international law not to send people to countries that practise torture or execution. so its hard

j42. they wont just deport people even though this law exists. and even though they have done bad crime..

Again the key thing here is to take in less immigrants, make the borders much more secure. because these things are complicated. So prevention is always the best way to protect yourself, instead of finding a cure... dont you agree guys?? both are necessary but prevention remains the best "option"

btw VBG or timex or anyone..how are the deportation laws in the United States? considering you are an immigrant nation, how do people view immigration in your countries? and crime etc..can legal immigrants aswell as illegal immigrants get deported? I mean when they do crimes..

thx

#1376326 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-09 14:23:39 (2 years ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

freedom of religion. every religion has it (mostly).

Ofcourse, but no special treatment for any religion (like muslims now get), everybody is treated equally, no matter what religion.

Is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, your country's national church, like The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark is it.. in Denmark?

Yeah, it is. They have the tax people who belong to their church and a percentage of corporation taxes are given to them also (orthodox church has also right to tax).
But individual members of the church don't get any special treatment by government, nor get the different groups which have religion base.
And as a part of finnish "government system" evangelist church is monitored strictly, it's statements about minorities for example must follow the official govenment lines (therefore many religious people have left the official church and joined all kind of smaller groups like pentecostalism,free church etc.).
They can discriminate more freely since they are not part of system like official church is.

Whole church and state separation is one of the things I would like to see in near future.

#1376333 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-09 14:32:07 (2 years ago) - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

how are the deportation laws in the United States? considering you are an immigrant nation, how do people view immigration in your countries? and crime etc..can legal immigrants aswell as illegal immigrants get deported? I mean when they do crimes..

President Obama has been deporting more illegals than his predecessors, but it's a drop in the bucket. We find someone is illegal, set up an immigration hearing, and the illegal doesn't show up. We do not have nearly the resources to go find them so they remain in the states. The only way to solve the problem is to secure the border, once they're in there's little we can do about it. Well trained sniper/spotter teams seems to be a logical and cost effective solution.

#1376336 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-09 14:33:35 (2 years ago) - [Report]

@sniper as I thought. I don't see it happening personally, either way there is a saying in my country which goes more or less like this; freedom of religion but not equality among religions. It is a favorite among conservative politicians.

Last edited by hOG at 2011-02-09 14:33:56

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