Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1519366 by unknown[81460] at 2013-02-03 23:45:47 (5 months ago) - [Report]

I cant quote as not on my pc. Stats are often misrepresentative spins suited to those producing the stats. While they are good its often the case they arent the big picture. I must live a sheltered life to have never experianced or seen all this hate which comes cap in hand with what people are saying. I do think that we are getting to a fucked up stage where minorities seem to have more rights ( or lee way in the laws) than everyday joe. So in my humble opinion its more a case of us integrating with them.

As i say though i have little experiance of this and i dint trust or believe the media.

#1519370 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-04 00:03:23 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Stats are often misrepresentative spins suited to those producing the stats.

True, thats why it's important that the provider is objective. A governmental (if we talk about for example scandinavia) source just giving out a the raw numbers is pretty reliable in my books.

One news about a problem which comes with islam:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de … umber-8000

Quote:

There are at least 5,000 to 8,000 cases of forced marriage in England every year but it is impossible to know the full scale of the problem, according to the Home Office.

The estimate is contained in the official consultation paper published on Monday on whether making forced marriage a specific criminal offence will help better protect victims.

The numbers are so high that a special law is considered.
I have no good reason not to belive them, even it's on the media.

Quote:

I do think that we are getting to a fucked up stage where minorities seem to have more rights ( or lee way in the laws) than everyday joe.So in my humble opinion its more a case of us integrating with them.

Yes, and I see a problem in that. I see our values better (im not a cultural relativist, I firmly believe that some cultures have better values than some) and I would like to keep them rather than us integrating to values which are worse than ours,or allowing a part of our society live under their own rules.
Our values provide equality between men and women,protect the minorities,quarantee freedom of speech and expression etc.
We once were under a religous tyranny but we managed to move on and adapt values which are not based on holy books / visons of religous men and stone age customs.

#1519423 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-04 11:56:29 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

beblebox wrote:

In other news there was a Nazi marsh in Greece today.3-5 000 people according to antifa & 15 000-20 000 according to nationell ungdom. According to my sources there where a lot of Nazis from Nationell Ungdom there. It is time to sharpen the machete I say.

One fascist organization against another. Hooray. None of them would allow the other constitutional free speech.

@TheBlues

Quote:

Fine, Islam is a hindrance for integration. Happy?

So, so sad. Why is this about pleasing others? It is obvious you are being sarcastic and malicious.

Quote:

But I don't believe that the damage it does is nearly as severe as you do. The immigrants who get to Sweden at a young age or second generation immigrants like myself rarely believe in Islam. It does not account for the "failure" of multiculturalism. It's a scapegoat and you've fallen for its allure.

I guess you have to prove that and at this moment you are not able to do that, so why not argue from the numbers like the ones presented in this thread? A good deal of evidence can be brought forth that ought to make you draw different conclusions. Generally speaking 'nones', those who have no religious affiliation like atheists, agnostics, humanists etc. are not higher in number in the countries of the world than those with - except if you say there are more immigrants that do not (nones) go to mosque than there are immigrants that do, which is true, but that doesn't mean some are not affected by Islam or Islamic culture of their parents - which would not be surprising if that was the case, especially for 2nd generation. I don't believe that most immigrants with a non-Western background in Sweden are -openly atheist-, like you are for example, and that it is only a rare group of them that believe in Islam.

We don't have to agree that Islamic immigration accounts for the failure of multiculturalism, just that multiculturalism is a failure and that it is stupid to waste money on it, and that immigration from non-Western countries should be stopped or nearly halted, so that we may focus on the immigration we have gotten over the decades.

#1519426 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-04 12:36:35 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

One fascist organization against another. Hooray. None of them would allow the other constitutional free speech.

It was more a cultural reference to this old 70s song. I promise you that free speech has nothing to do with this. Picked the memory-day of Ut�a as a reference to time but it is not the best version of this song. :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKtQtZlUR64

Quote:

Most people go with the flow if possible. Most people would rather have the peace and quiet.
But if fascism comes creeping back,
it's you and I must resist.

The weeds grow and thrive. So hone and sharpen your knife.
If you let it spread by wind over the world you get to pay for your doubt with your life.

@3:14 You can also see the prime minister of Norway.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-04 12:39:10

#1519432 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-04 12:59:14 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

"Denna s�ng om det fascistiska ogr�set har dessv�rre inte f�rlorat i aktualitet. Men nu �r det inte i Latinamerika utan i Europa som fascismen v�xer sig starkare. Och Norden h�ller sej v�l framme: Danskt folkeparti, det norska Fremskrittspartiet och Sverige som ligger etta p� den europeiska nazitoppen.�
source: Mikaelwiehe.se"

"This song about the fascist weed is not less irrelevant today. Today it is not only in Latin America, but in Europe that fascism is growing stronger. And the Nordic countries are no stranger to this: Danish People's Party, the Norwegian Progress Party and Sweden are the number ones on the European Nazi top."

In other words, his own words, it was a song he performed not in connection with Breivik, but to the Progress Party in Norway, Danish Peoples Party in Denmark and the "other" "Nazi"-parties in Sweden. I remember it, because our PM was there. Michael Wehe is an old fart that have no grasp of anything let alone democratic elected parties and he is essentially calling ~10-15% of the voters in those countries for Nazis.

I don't understand how the left can see national-socialism as an invention of the right - it's socialism and an invention of the left and always were - and I don't understand why the left keep insisting that criticism of immigration is somehow Nazism. Other than as a ruse with which to slander the critics of immigration rhetorically with.

//edited: clarification, language

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-04 13:42:32

#1519436 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-04 13:33:11 (5 months ago) - [Report]

There has always bin voices within the left about Wiehe and how he took all the money from Hoola Bandola Band. As a example they almost always point toward nationalteatern that used all their money to a propaganda theatre for kids.

I personally really like the punk part of this movement but I am also a sucker for psychedelic rock and this whole 70s music movement was awesome for this.

Here is Palme picking between Wiehe and Afzelius. Might be a subconscious thing, but I always laugh when I see it. Some say that this was the thing that killed him.

I do not see SD or any of these other partys as Nazi though as stated many times before. But the fascism is growing as well. Imagine if the fiat system will crash.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-04 13:38:03

#1519454 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-04 15:27:23 (5 months ago) - [Report]

A recent study published by Le Monde pretty much is against what theblues posted earlier about 2nd > generation immigrants (how religion is not part of their life).
In neatherlands over 90% of immigrants who have islamic background identify themselves 1st as a muslim.
They also practise religion more than 15 years ago.

#1519497 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-04 19:42:32 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@sniperfin and hOG.
Seriously fellows, it would help if I was given the power to make two posts in a row in this thread so I can answer each of your arguments separately. Anyways, here goes;

hOG wrote:

I don't believe that most immigrants with a non-Western background in Sweden are -openly atheist-, like you are for example, and that it is only a rare group of them that believe in Islam.

sniperfin wrote:

Few people in Sweden are openly atheist. Most are "non religious" Christians. It's the same with the second generation Muslims. They profess to be Muslims yet they haven't seen the inside of a mosque nor do follow any Islamic tenets. Identifying with a religion really means fuck all.

hOG wrote:

So, so sad. Why is this about pleasing others? It is obvious you are being sarcastic and malicious.

I was not being sarcastic nor was I being malicious. How that can even be construed as malicious is beyond me. I've always been of the opinion that all religions including Islam do damage to everything that is exposed to them.

hOG wrote:

Wrong. They are not technicalities. In the case of Islam antisemitism is mandated. Wife-beating is mandated. Killing homosexuals is mandated. Killing polytheists is mandated. Holy war is mandated. And so on.

It's still a technicality from a non-religious perspective since all religious people are hypocrites. No Muslim actually FOLLOWS the tenets of their faith and nor does any Christian was the point I was trying to make.
You only see it as something more than a technicality because you're religious, you actually expect people to do as they preach.

Or do you as a Christian stone adulterers, disobedient children and unmarried non-virgin women to death?
No? Huh, how strange. It's almost as if everything I've said makes perfect fucking sense.

hOG wrote:

Then visiting relatives do your mom wear a scarf, does she greet the men traditionally or does she shake their hand.. if your mother and father, including yourself, are true apostates and the rest of your family including your relatives, know about this and are okay with it, you are lucky to be born into a family, because that family is a part of a very small elite.

No, my mother doesn't wear a scarf and she greets men as an equal. We are true apostate and yes our family knows about this. But no, we're not part of an elite.

It's just that you have no idea about how religious people in those countries actually are. You follow the situation from across the world without ever having set foot there. Then you read about one case of shitty Muslim fundamentalists and you act as if the entire region consist of those kinds of people. Your perspective on this issue is not anchored in reality, it's anchored in the extremist papers you read.

hOG wrote:

I am asking that it is only fair that people who have sought asylum for example have their asylum revoked if they commit crime. I also consider it fair that immigrants that commit serious crimes face serious consequences. Especially because of the threat of terror we should consider to deport immigrants that have conspired against the safety of our nation. This is especially without problems if people have dual citizenship. It become more problematic if they have one or no citizenship. This is necessary, because some cultures and their religion have declared war on Western societies or simply cannot integrate with western ideals and values and in fact hate them and want them gone. You say this is an extra penalty, but I have to disagree. It is necessary to defend our border and the safety of our children. It also shows that whoever commits this crime or terror is more connected to his country of origin than the Western country he came to. All are equal according to the law and will be treated as a citizen. If you have dual citizenship you might risk getting one of them revoked. That is not breaking with that principle that everyone is equal, but instead it is taking into consideration the entire legal situation and it doesn't remove the chance of appeal either, which will always be there in a civilized society.

For serious crimes that threaten the security of the nation and similarly, I can agree that deportation could be a viable punishment. But there must come a point where an immigrant is no longer seen as an immigrant and is instead seen as a Swedish citizen. You're the one who insists that immigrants leave their old cultures and allegiances behind so that they can truly integrate, but how can they do that if they are never recognized as Swedish even after having gained a Swedish citizenship?
And here's a reminder, when talking about if a punishment is viable we should always imagine the least serious crime for which the punishment can be given. Gang rape is not that least serious crime.

sniperfin wrote:

I know that in ex russian countries gays have much harder time than in the "main europe",but atleast they are not publicly hung there by the government like in many islamic countries

Ah, but we're not talking about whether Christianity is more damaging to Europe than Islam is to the Middle East.
We're talking solely about Europe and concerning Europe I rightfully claim that the damage of Christianity exceeds the damage of Islam.

sniperfin wrote:

Yes, there are places in europe where gays have hard time, but in the mainland they have not, until recently and that is mainly caused by islam.

I don't believe you. You will have to prove it since I believe that it's more due to the Christian churches.

sniperfin wrote:

Treatment of women (both muslim and non muslim).
Treatment of jews and gays.
Violence against those who critisize islam.
Radicalisation, there are lot's of mosques where hate speeches are given young muslime men are turned into western hating extremists who then bully both muslims and non muslims.
Isolation to own muslim communities where people practise own laws (force marriages,genital mutilation,honor killing, etc.) based on their culture.
Just to name few there, you get the picture.

But none of them occur in large enough quantities to warrant the claims that Islam is taking over and destroying Europe. I agree that Islam should be avoided and discouraged but you're speaking about either localized evils like the treatment of Jews in Malm� or very vague things like the treatment of women. It's not the immediate danger to Europe that you Breivik fans say it is.

But just to reiterate, I do agree that Islam is shit.

#1519512 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-04 21:04:28 (5 months ago) - [Report]

TheBlues

Quote:

Like I mentioned earlier, the assumption that all religions - but for the sake of this discussion, and in regards to this quote - all cultures are the same or are equal, is wrong. They are not all same and some are better than others. But you assume differently, else you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. And that is the underlying assumption you lean on here.

First however you do admit you are part of a small elite in the sense you are -openly atheist-. In other words you set yourself apart from even those muslims that aren't practicing Muslims in the sense that they go inside a mosque and it sets you even further apart from the vast majority of Christians that are affected by a Christian culture. Of course it makes a difference. Most are, you say, non religious -Christians- and they are different from non religious Muslims without a doubt. Other cultures (muslim ones) do tend to be deeply intolerant and difficult to integrate with Western values and society. What those two groups have in common - that they both have no religious affiliation - is not a very meaty argument, compared to what sets them apart, which is a set of different values primarily, because one is affected by Christianity and the other Islam. But you show no understanding, because of the underlying assumption.

Quote:

I've always been of the opinion that all religions including Islam do damage to everything that is exposed to them.

What, in your opinion, religion is the least of a shit? You live in a country that is predominately affected by Christianity.

Quote:

It's still a technicality from a non-religious perspective since all religious people are hypocrites. No Muslim actually FOLLOWS the tenets of their faith and nor does any Christian was the point I was trying to make.
You only see it as something more than a technicality because you're religious, you actually expect people to do as they preach.

I can assure you that there are plenty of atheists that see all those things that I mentioned as very serious indeed and share my opinion of Islam also. You on the other hand are clearly defending fundamentalist Islamists, either on purpose or by accident (I can't tell), when you refer to the mandates within Islamic scripture that calls for the stoning of homosexuals, the killing of polytheists (eg. hindues), the killing of apostates, holy war, wife beating and so on and so on, as technicalities. Its disgusting.

I can't believe that what exempts Islam in your eyes, its warrior prophet and its very violent theology is that firm conviction that all religious people (not Muslims!) are hypocrites (in even measure). Here again it is all religious people and not Muslims you are referring to - and the underlying assumption is again that all religions are equally bad/good and in that sense Islam must be protected from -too much criticism-. It quite frankly dishonest and hardly objective of you. You've lost it, TheBlues.

Son, I am disappoint.

Quote:

Or do you as a Christian stone adulterers, disobedient children and unmarried non-virgin women to death?
No? Huh, how strange. It's almost as if everything I've said makes perfect fucking sense.

I'm not sure I get your question, but I guess you are trying to refer to Old Testament laws and somehow asking me why I'm not stoning adulterers and thus being a hypocrite. It is a shame you never really got to know the predominant religion of the country you grew up in. Not too late.

Quote:

No, my mother doesn't wear a scarf and she greets men as an equal. We are true apostate and yes our family knows about this. But no, we're not part of an elite.

You have identified yourself as apart of an elite (openly atheist) unlike your peers, and your mother doesn't wear a headscarf, a hidjab for example, or any one in your family, right, and she greets a man by shaking his hand, not by holding her hand to her heart as per the traditional Muslim greeting. I'd say your family is part of a presumably wealthy, academical elite, yes, but it makes no nevermind.

Quote:

It's just that you have no idea about how religious people in those countries actually are. You follow the situation from across the world without ever having set foot there. Then you read about one case of shitty Muslim fundamentalists and you act as if the entire region consist of those kinds of people. Your perspective on this issue is not anchored in reality, it's anchored in the extremist papers you read.

You underestimate me and fundamentalist Islam and the situation in Europe. Just look at the polls from the UK and France for example in the vigilante thread. Pretty high. Do you really think they got there, because the situation is more complex and it is because of economical situation, or so-called "right-wing populist" parties have managed to brainwash the plebeians.. people are fed up with the intolerance and the bullshit from the religion of peace. And if you are genuine about what we agree with each other with, immigration, then you ought to take some more independent steps here as well and prove you are who you say you are: Mr. apostate.

Quote:

Excellent that we agree.

I just don't think it is possible that 1st generation immigrants can leave their old cultures behind. And I don't think that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. However some cultures are disrespectful towards the culture of the country they moved to, for example women, and so break with that particular Nordic culture of equality. Especially for Swedes it is hard to tolerate the Islamic view on women, covered, patriarchal, often sexists.

Eventually the children of immigrants should in theory leave the culture of their parents and assimilate, because they have more in common with the country they are born in than the country of their parents. This has just proven very difficult with non-Western immigrants.. vigilante patrols, sharia areas, ghettoes, gangs, rape, crime, terror, unemployment and so on. Even for second and third generation, they have problems speaking the language of the country they moved to, and they lack behind in education. There are many reasons to halt immigration from non-Western countries and focus on problems here and now and then deportation for serious crimes.

As for the least viable punishment? Look to Denmark for examples, as we already have those laws in place. There are so many cases, gangrape would be one, but you are right, not the least serious one, robbery could be another (third strike).

//edited: clarification

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-04 22:47:01

#1519567 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-05 13:08:01 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Assasination attempt on Lars Hedegaard's life today just some hours ago by Pakistani man, BT.dk reports:

Quote:

The objective for a supposed assasination attempt at Frederiksberg in Copenhagen Tuesday morning was supposedly the Islam-critical commentator and President of the Free Press Society, Lars Hedegaard. Residents on the street confirms to Berlingske News that he is currently being interrogated in a patrol car on the spot.

According tv2.dk shots had been dropped in front of Lars Hedegaard's home. The perpetrator went, according to police, up to the victim, allegedly Hedegaard.

- The man contacted the victim and fired shots at him. But the shots went over the head, said police Commissioner Lars-Christian Borg from Copenhagen Police.

When the perpetrator tried to fire another shoot, the pistol 'clicked", which means either that the cartridge was defective or that there is no cartridge, explains Borg.

After the failed attempt, the man fled with his pistol from the spot and Lars Hedegaard sounded the alarm.

Police are currently here in great numbers.

- There are a lot of police on the road. At least 15 policemen and several cars, says a resident.

The police and the research unit has cornered off an area of some 100 meters and is in the process of investigation.

The nearby Zoo is also being closed down while the police are looking for the perpetrator. Keepers in the Zoo have been told that they should contact the police if they see a man in a red jacket, possibly, of Pakistani origin.

Even the police cannot say more about neither motive, perpetrator or victim, at this moment.

Law enforcement would like to contact the witnesses who have seen the offender, who is about 30 years old, dark in appearance with thick, dark hair. During the shooting, he was wearing a red postal-like jacket.

Police have issued a press release:

Today at. 11.21 shots were fired against a person on Frederiksberg. The victim was fortunately not hit. The perpetrator fled the scene after his gun malfunctioned in his second attempt attempt to fire.

The perpetrator is described as: Male, about 30 years old, thick, dark hair. The offender was wearing a red postman-like jacket.

Police are at the scene and is currently investigating the case, there is no evidence relating the incident to the on-going gang conflict.

This is very serious indeed and it amazes me that our intelligence services did not watch a man like Hedegaard, 70years of age now. His online paper, that he has been running with Ingrid Carlqvist has been under attack these past few weeks by hackers from Sweden. Sorry for the double-post, but..

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-05 13:08:28

#1519592 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-05 16:52:27 (5 months ago) - [Report]

I am really sorry to hear about this hOG. Bin reading around a little. It is not right even though, as pointed out by (swe) DN - strategically right now - that he said that Muslims rape their own children. Even though we do not know at this moment whom might be responsible the act is very important to take in and think about how fragile the free press really is.

There has bin simular attacks at (swe) Syndicalst journalists. This is the thing we can not allow murders against any political opinion makers or as (eng) Heinrich Heine said "where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also". If you publish something illegal in press you should be able to be tried for it. But you still should have the right to do so if you are ready to face the consequences.

I also know that I said that I wanted a politician tried for treason but I do not in all seriousness believe in death penalty. I hope that he will be okay and that someone do not make his opinions an issue against our right to print something.

Also on a lighter not I laughed a little about the double post thing considering what TheBlues wrote right before.

Edit:Should really proofread my things before pushing post.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-05 17:08:57

#1519595 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-05 17:54:04 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Thanks, beblebox! That is only what I would expect - unlimited freedom of speech and expression (also for those I disagree with) as long as it is not connected with violence.

It has just been confirmed by the police that the assassin/terrorist spoke fluent danish, but is presumably with an Arabic background. That must imply he has a 2nd or 3rd generation background.

PS: this is a bin

#1519660 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-06 01:01:18 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@hOG & @thread
Hah, thanks for the correction! I am well aware that it might be a little bit of a problem for someone that has a lot of experience reading to read a text that has a lot of bad formulations. It does slow down the speed when reading a text when you have to stop, pause and re-read. The only real explanation I do have is that English is a second language and I still keep to Swedish books. However I am working on that and I do think the formulations are a little better now when I do not use the TV as computer-screen.

To get back on thread I do really think we have to get back to religion and I have had a few theories about this after the last few posts.

How should we define a religion in the modern time?
"Religious suffering is, at the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Karl Marx

This part has been quoted many times trough out history. Many times only to provoke a religious person or group. But if you ask me it is not really like that because in reality it is criticising us as humans and the way we often procrastinate.

I really do not - even though it might many times be inevitable - want this to turn in to an atheist vs. every other religion flame-war because it is not the point of it. For example you hOG declare yourself a God-fearing man and this has given you some simple rules of how to act from the Ten Commandments. The really old parts of your religion has been reformed and the entire church itself has also responded in to different types of reformations. No matter if Protestant, Lutheran, Orthodox or Catholic.

I am not fully sure how it does work in other countries but in the one I do live in there is a church election that decides who really gets a chance to drive the church in different directions. Because of this every country's churches gathers around and grow in their own direction.

So please do not see this as an attack against fate but a observation of the human mind. The focus of what Marx really thought about should be the way he critiqued all religions. As tools leading to procrastination. It was this he really was angry about. Not that people believed in something but that it was stopping people from making their own life better. If Marx thought religion really could be such a heavy tool for procrastination. Just imagine what he would think about the TV, Radio or Computers.

The time of the internets has come
But something has happened. With internet a massive tool got released upon us. Now we are able to combine our sofa and make a revolution. Without the need to even leave the comfort of our own homes. We can procrastinate and save the world at the same time.

Islam is also one of the old religions. What the Imams do is to read their holy book and tries to make people use this in the real life. These readings ARE a matter of opinion. As that documentary you took the time to watch (thank you) stated there is something going on all over the world within Islam. Something everyone referred to as adapting to time.

Even though the Mosque has not been exploited to the privilege of free speech for very long I see things happening fast. The young generation HAS an entire different opinion about what their religion is compared to the older. The Internet has changed our whole infrastructure and the way we communicate forever. It does not involve everyone, you can find extremists but I say that they are rare.

But it is not only the only types of religious-like groups to take in to consideration and therefore I will address them with the most used description, Groups. Let us start with one group that has been blamed for many things in the last few years.

Anonymous.
This group grew from 4-chan. It was all about trolling the internets under one general rule �anything goes�. They declared war against many different companies and religions. They have attacked everything from Opera to Racist podcasters. Sooner or later they had to break out of 4-chan though and become something bigger. With this all the pedobear culture disappeared.

I think they did get kidnapped by the anarchist slogan even though the idea is the same. -I have been fooled to so many times that I do not know what is true anymore. I do think there might have been some very clever hackers that sneaked in some time and provided other ways to communicate and that they have pushed the anarchism even more but it is just a feeling. A lot of �oldfags� has spoken up about it with the big question about what happened with the lulz?

Flashback
This group could be considered a religion with the provided information. Their commandments involve but is not limited to that everyone has to have a penis that is 40cm when not erected, to ask every girl if they take it anal and to write nigger here and there. In this area groups like SD really has had an opportunity to grow not to mention the Nazis.

The Piratbay/Piratbyran
The pirate bay is also one that should be considered that has a lot of power. Like Peter Sunde said they realized their power when they published a page limited to one ISP that just had decided to censor Russian MP3 sites. This ISP lost 40% of their costumers in a week. Even though anakata is in prison anything can happen. The idea of freedom is to strong. It is rumoured that in anakatas police papers it is stated that he has a big network of activists supporting him. I see them on twitter every day.

9gag, imgur, twitter, tumblr and aftonbladet is also places where these groups can grow. Not to mention Mac fanboism.

So what has made all of them so successful?
1)They have not stopped how they are growing.
2)There has been something that has created the label �us� and excluded everyone else as �them�.

Within these groups there is a democratic process just as it is within the church or Islam constantly evolving until it becomes something very own and we do not see this until it explodes. Every group has their own set of rules that can be reformed and every human wants one thing and that is to be free.

Back to religion
I do respect your religion. I do admire it and understand that in today�s day and age it does not matter to anyone else what you do believe and the religion is something personal to guide you and your morale. The critique Marx had is severely outdated and really is not needed anymore. It needs to be modernized to these basic theories of means of procrastination.

So we are full of different cultures in Europe. Islam or Christianity is something that will co-exist in the background as a guide of moral if someone do not go over to atheism because this revolution of communication has already happened and I do not think ANYTHING can stop it. If someone wants to live or raise their kids after a certain type of moral it can be done side by side with the future but oppression is going to be gone.

As someone said in the beginning:

Quote:

we've been spoon-fed baby food at school when we hungered for steak... the bits of meat that you did let slip through were pre-chewed and tasteless. We've been dominated by sadists, or ignored by the apathetic. The few that had something to teach found us willing pupils, but those few are like drops of water in the desert.

This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals.

TBy
Where TBy never ever has gone this way even though there was a big opportunity to do so with the paypal it is against our set of rules to do anything else than to find a solution and to talk with each other. I do get the feeling that it might be of an importance that any type of exposure in the public eye is something that is bad for us and that is probably one of our unspoken commandments.

The only real dream is to copy things. We are not like them because this has been the choice of the picked leaders. But also, we are -TBy-.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-06 05:05:56

#1519671 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-06 07:34:41 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Germany seams to have some problems with bulgarian/romanian gypsies(?). Does anyone know how big the problems really are?

Might evolve my question a bit as I haven't seen to much of the gypsy problem myself except some beggars although I've heard quite a lot of stories from people working in stores, living as neighbours etc.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z2K6NYJ5z1

Last edited by Arnemes at 2013-02-06 07:49:00

#1519693 by Picard1701E Donor

(Power User) at 2013-02-06 12:23:30 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Arnemes wrote:

The problems are rather big actually. Apart from them coming over here with 10+ children and receiving aid for each one of them, they send their children out to steal for example. I live in Cologne, and in some parts of the city you have to be extra careful, or your stuff is gone. They train their young ones, below the age of 14, so the prolice has to let them go if they get caught. The adult ones dress up as older, disabled or crippled people and beg for money all over the city. I actually saw some of the "disabled" ones hitting people with a crook, when they didn't give them any money. Also, they are standing at a lot of traffic lights to "clean" your windshield, even if you show them you don't want them to, and if you don't pay, they rip off your wiper and ran off, the cops never catch them.

#1519695 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-06 12:37:57 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Picard1701E wrote:

Arnemes wrote:

In finland it's pretty much same, organized begging and stealing (they even steal copper wires from houses,to sell the copper which is pretty valuable. On the top of the cake the areas where they live while they stay here (when it's warm enough here) are in horrible condition when they leave for the winter. Everything is left like shit from your ass, it's just nasty.
Our parliament has discussed a lot about this and what kind of laws should be implemented to prevent this. From total ban of begging to just not let them entering the country.
An then ofcourse there are the leftist feminist sows who think that while they are here the kids should be placed on our schools, luckily our education minister is a reasonable man who rejected that kind of stupid idea on the spot.
Personally I am for a not letting them in at all. We have evidence enough that they are causing harm and forming illegal camps all over the country.
It is comparatible to a crime organization. If european countries don't let in known football fans due the fact they cause harm, why shouldn't we be able to reject known criminals ?
Same thing with irish travelers who are doint similar shit here. They go to people and without asking start to for example lay asphalt on their drive way. Then they come up with ridiculous bills and when the house owner won't pay, they start to bully him/her. And ofcourse they do crimes aswell.
Known riff raff should be turned back in the border, simple as that.

#1519712 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-06 16:11:26 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

How should we define a religion in the modern time?
"Religious suffering is, at the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Karl Marx

...

The critique Marx had is severely outdated and really is not needed anymore.

I agree, it is not, but that is mostly because that quote is on its own extremely limited when it comes to analyzing religion. Really, if you look beyond the tedious prejudice Engels and Marx had against people that did not have connections with the proletariat, it is a really limited analysis of religion.

There are many different definitions of religions in modern time - one of the major errors in the modern analysis of religion however is to lump them together. Marx did this and Marxian analysis is practical everywhere in the sociological understanding of religion. Psycho-analysis did this as well. And so on.

That is also why I mention this is about culture and there is a difference between Europe and the ME, or Western or non-Western cultures and so on. Some refer to this as a clash between certain cultures.

What is important about Marx, if he is to be taken seriously, is the truthful observation he makes, that religion plays an important role to human beings. That is also why different religions, like Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, would have different consequences for a community of people depending on the religion. E.g. in Buddhist countries the doctrine of continual rebirth plays such a huge role, that even if you are born handicapped, homosexual, etc., you'll more or less fit in. This produces a society with a high level of tolerance inevitably.

The warrior theology in early Islam, Muhammad's sexual affections for a 6 year old girl and the mandate to take slaves, for example, have produced a deformed theology, that has in a dysfunctional culture, where jihad (holy war) is admonished and strongly recommended (9/11, 7/7, Mombai, Theo van Gogh, Al Shahab, Al Queda, Madrid bombings, etc), child marriages is not abolished and slavery still exists in strong religious Muslim countries.

It is time to acknowledge that different religions = different cultures/behavior

Quote:

For example you hOG declare yourself a God-fearing man and this has given you some simple rules of how to act from the Ten Commandments. The really old parts of your religion has been reformed and the entire church itself has also responded in to different types of reformations. No matter if Protestant, Lutheran, Orthodox or Catholic.

I would never describe myself with those words. Nor do I live from the rules of the Ten Commandments.

Quote:

But something has happened. With internet a massive tool got released upon us. Now we are able to combine our sofa and make a revolution.

There is no need for a revolution in so far Western society is concerned. There certainly isn't a need for a proletarian revolution. We've already seen how far Lenin and Stalin took that revolution. There is a need to protect our society and our constitutional freedoms, our values and traditions, from those that aim to abolish them, e.g. the Islamist

Quote:

Islam is also one of the old religions. What the Imams do is to read their holy book and tries to make people use this in the real life. These readings ARE a matter of opinion. As that documentary you took the time to watch (thank you) stated there is something going on all over the world within Islam. Something everyone referred to as adapting to time.

The interpretations are not a matter of opinion. The interpretations of the Quran are found in the ahadith. Besides the Quran, the ahadith have the highest importance within Islam. Women as Imams are a wild Swedish fantasy and really only permitted if the crowd is entirely female.

Here we have feminists within Islam as well. I've heard the most popular of them, Sherin Khankan, claim she is part of a worldiwide network, which consists of over a 100 people... if there is something going on, it is really really slow.

Quote:

Anonymous.

Imo, quite pathetic and obviously left wing from the get go. Perhaps they took everything on when it was staged on 4chan, but their actions are guided by very experienced hackers and demagogues. They want civilian disobedience through hacking, which is as leftwing and anarchist as you can get. Hope they get in trouble and whoever are the puppeteers get busted.

Quote:

Within these groups there is a democratic process just as it is within the church or Islam constantly evolving until it becomes something very own and we do not see this until it explodes. Every group has their own set of rules that can be reformed and every human wants one thing and that is to be free.

Groups like Anonymous would take Islam over Western anyday. Or they'll corrupt it into something else like "not-Islam vs. Western Imperialism", or "Jewish lobby vs. Palestinian state". etc. etc. They don't see the big picture.

You can't count on "Anonymous" for getting rid of the extremism that is active within Islam and the culture it produces. Muslims have to do that themselves with their Quran and ahadith, as Christians have a long long time ago with their Bible. And as Jews have by living in secular societies.

#1519749 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-02-06 20:41:54 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Known riff raff should be turned back in the border, simple as that.

This, a million times this. Also an "immigrant" or "refugee" that commits a crime of any sort should be deported along with all relatives back to where they came from. That would make the communities police themselves too if they are serious about staying.

#1519769 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2013-02-06 22:11:24 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Indeed, globalization is a tremendous force that cannot be stopped. Adapt or be crushed beneath it.

Religion will of course decline worldwide. It's growth is mostly due to thirdworld brithrates and not conversions.

And btw, those arguing for the deportation of the convinct including all his relatives are fucking brainless.

Once you grant someone citizenship that means you have granted him a bond between him, the government and all of its people.

Futhermore, collective punishment is a crime against humanity. It means that you are targeting someone for a crime they did not commit. It means that you have different laws based on ethnicity and not nationality.

If two Swedish citizens (ie. both have swedish nationality) commit a crime, will you then start to look at their ethnicity? where do you draw the line? Will they get different punishments based on their ethnicity? No, they have to be dealt with as equals.

The line is drawn at nationality. those with citizenship and those without. If you want to discuss immigration. Then have a discussion about who gets to immigrate and who gets a citizenship. NOT what happens after said person gets his citizenship and becomes and equal among the people. Once you give a person citizenship ( lets say swedish ) you have made that person swedish according to national and international law.

as for mrunne's comments about sending all the relatives back to where they came from. Despite them being innocents...... That's just beyond stupid. (Even if they are not citizens) It is completely baffling and it is clearly against international laws and norms. It is against human rights. Anyone suggesting that we do this is completely uneducated about how the world works. (Diplomacy, macro/international economics etc..etc..) Completely uneducated about the geneva conventions and the international charter of human rights.

And sniperfin I agree with most of your comments. We should limit immigration and we should make it much harder to get citizenship. The canadian skilled workers visa offers clues to this. A program that is point based. It is based on education levels, age, adaptability and linguistic skills.

You need 67 points to be eligable. Check it out :

Would you qualify to come to Canada as a skilled worker?

This is especially good if you have an education in the STEM areas. (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math.) But also if you have good english and french skills. The australians have a similiar system. My uncle is a professor at University of Melbourne. Medical/bio chemistry.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2013-02-07 01:46:51

#1519833 by mrunne (Power User) at 2013-02-07 12:12:24 (5 months ago) - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

And btw, those arguing for the deportation of the convinct including all his relatives are fucking brainless.

Once you grant someone citizenship that means you have granted him a bond between him, the government and all of its people.

Well I tell you that you are fucking brainless for your opinions, hows that?

At least here in Finland you dont get citizenship straight away, hence if you have not gotten it yet you should be on your best behaviour and try to integrate with what would be normal society for the country you are in. Not behave like the monkey / wildman from whatever hellhole you came crawling out of.

#1519835 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-07 12:15:34 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@dodeliatcha

Quote:

Religion will of course decline worldwide. It's growth is mostly due to thirdworld brithrates and not conversions.

Difficult to say. There is no "of course". Christianity is not in decline in Asia for example, in fact it is the fastest growing religion in China. There is no sure tell sign either that Christianity is in decline in Scandinavia either. To give an example, since 1849 only 9 churches have been closed down in Denmark (in spite of the talk of no congregation etc). Islam is not in decline either. Those religions that are hard pressed would be sects that are either independent or branching off one of the major religions. Established religions are simply there and fluctuate throughout the decades.

Quote:

Futhermore, collective punishment is a crime against humanity. It means that you are targeting someone for a crime they did not commit. It means that you have different laws based on ethnicity and not nationality.

In some cases collective punishment is not seen as a violation of human rights. In cases like social fraud, where it is difficult to tell who is misusing benefits collective punishment is used. I think all Scandinavian countries use this method of punishment in cases of social fraud. In other cases it might be legal as well, such as when minors commit crimes since it is the responsibility of the parents to safeguard and raise their children (they have to pay for damages). Or either the child is removed from their custody. If a person is legally responsible and commits a crime then it would be a "crime against humanity" to punish his friends, family or any other for what he committed and wouldn't make sense either, unless his friends or family had some interest in the crime. It has nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality.

Quote:

The line is drawn at nationality. those with citizenship and those without. If you want to discuss immigration. Then have a discussion about who gets to immigrate and who gets a citizenship. NOT what happens after said person gets his citizenship and becomes and equal among the people. Once you give a person citizenship ( lets say swedish ) you have made that person swedish according to national and international law.

Sure, but there are many other factors to take into consideration, which you haven't thought off in the above quote, such as for example dual citizenship. We are after all talking about immigrants, that is people that move willingly from one country to another, and not people that come to a country and seek asylum.
Also, it takes a while to achieve a citizenship. I'm for extending the requirements for immigrants and asylum seekers, even though really I do not want to, but it is necessary for smaller countries if they want to keep a responsible economical and educational standard.

Quote:

This is especially good if you have an education in the STEM areas. (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math.) But also if you have good english and french skills. The australians have a similiar system. My uncle is a professor at University of Melbourne. Medical/bio chemistry.

This is VERY similar to the system that Denmark constructed some 10 years ago.

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-07 12:18:16

#1519958 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-07 23:10:24 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

There is no need for a revolution in so far Western society is concerned. There certainly isn't a need for a proletarian revolution. We've already seen how far Lenin and Stalin took that revolution.

I am going to start here, I hope that is okay. This will reach a little of topic but I feel like I have to explain what I think about it. It does have with the topic to do because you will need to understand some of the opposition. It is quite obvious that it is not really needed with the revolution of the proletariat. It has already happened. It happened almost one hundred years ago.

I am going to try to be as short as I can with this. It was when we forced the ruling class to let us, as in workers and females to vote. This is my interpretation of his and the later

Marx never asked for a revolution in style of Lenin�s and he defiantly did not ask for anything like Stalin�s perverted dream of building the next society with a massive bureaucracy. What he said was that this is how our society works and what is wrong with it.

He later went on and described the utopia that was the goal for us but he never drew out a map of how to reach it. It was him that said that sooner or later companies will be able to grow as big as countries and they will wage war against each other. Lenin had some theories about that USA would run out of oil around 1940 and afterwards invade other countries to steal their recourses.

He did say that we do need a form of society in between back then and the utopia.

The dictatorship of the proletariat

Karl Marx wrote:

Now, as for myself, I do not claim to have discovered either the existence of classes in modern society or the struggle between them. Long before me, bourgeois historians had described the historical development of this struggle between the classes, as had bourgeois economists their economic anatomy. My own contribution was to show that the existence of classes is merely bound up with certain historical phases in the development of production; that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat; [and] that this dictatorship, itself, constitutes no more than a transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.

I claim that we live in the dictatorship of the proletariat as we speak. What exists now is the between phase of what was the old and what will become the new. Marx said that he never wanted to see a revolution in a country like Russia because what will happen will come from countries as he him self said England or Germany. I have my bet on that blue area where you pointed.

Communism has been to misused by fascists so that the meaning of if has disappeared. This is why I like to use the word singularity.

This is why I want these reforms and to protect the industrial revolution until it has played out to full extent. We need the dictatorship of the proletariat or as we refer to it in modern society �democracy� but more and more of our jobs will be handed over to the product we have created.

Right now most of our jobs either exists within science or service. The scientists are building the revolution. The stock market is more and more converting to a planned economy. Quarter Earnings reports and all this stuff is a much more sophisticated perverted version of Stalin's five year plans.

The problem I see is that within a few years only 10% of the population is going to be needed in the workforce and we will have a real problem with the transaction. If we would have adapted how long the working day would be compared to how much less work is needed we would not face the same problem. For me it is either this or a massive last war.

Einstein wrote:

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an �army of unemployed� almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers� goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

What he said.

hOG wrote:

I feel like you missed the meaning of my post.

Anonymous is not a group as in a steady group. It is the effect of what internet and the communication has released upon us. In every country in the green area of that map you linked there is anonymous movements. If you give the masses the ability to talk with each other at the same time as they procrastinate they will throw over their oppressor.

Anonymous is to protest and strike (stop working). You can not bring in the army against the protesters. We(swe)have seen what happens then.

Here is a map you should look at.

If we give these people internet and time there will be no more control of the mind. If the government tries to stop it they will stop them.

Check out this page:
http://telecomix.org

They are forcing internets. It is a war. Setting up modem pools for everyone to reach as long as you have a phone line. They take faxes and texts. If you take the time to look at the Blue cabinet with the anonymous surveillance and intelligence you might notice a logo from the Swedish pirate movement.

The Kopimi logo.

Maybe it is anakata in a corner pulling strings. Maybe it is someone that wants to pay tribute to Ibi Kopimi Botani. I don't know.

My point is that soon if we continue to pretend that it is a crisis we will have less and less people with union salaries. It is the natural order since it is less and less people that is needed in the workforce. But if we continue starvation will follow until we reach the next level. There is no stopping. The power of the technology doubles every 18 months and we will reach singularity.

This is why I see my self as a own kind of reformist syndicalist. I think we can learn a lot from the socialist movement but it is not Lenin or Stalin. The only thing I like with Lenin was that he realized his mistake and said that the Soviet he created was retarded. Also amongst many free thinkers we do have Trotskij, Einstein, Palme and Gandhi all with a goal of socialism.

Edit: fixed some links and some errors.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-08 00:35:27

#1520010 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-08 16:18:44 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

I wrote what I did, because their is no need to dig into the more elaborate details of your post, which were not really on-topic. I don't disagree with what you are saying about "Anonymous", just that there are puppeteers that have leftwing intentions.

Quote:

Here is a map you should look at.

Censorship is more widespread than that and the map should be less bright than it is. "Anonymous", which is a Western phenomenon (also clear from that map why that can only be so), in their view capitalism and Israel for example share more weight of that blame than culture or Islam does.
"Anonymous" cannot help a nation out like Egypt, where in a democratic election, ~70% of them vote for a Sharia constitutional government. The revolution, as you call it, or the reformation as I called it, must take place within Islam and the problem of understanding the Quran as Allah's word. It is first and foremost a spiritual revolution and not just about access to technology. Access to technology and benefits have not prevented radicalism in Europe.

#1520115 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-09 10:49:51 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

The revolution, as you call it, or the reformation as I called it, must take place within Islam and the problem of understanding the Quran as Allah's word. It is first and foremost a spiritual revolution and not just about access to technology. Access to technology and benefits have not prevented radicalism in Europe.

They one key thing for reformation of a culture (in this case islamic culture) is impowering women, it has always worked and I have no doubt it would work with islamic culture aswell.
Could be that it requires a spriritual revolution first, or it could be that the spiritual revolution follows the impowerment of women, but never the less imo that is the key.
Thats why extreme muslims are against women getting education. Women who stand for girls getting education and being more independent rather than posession of their husbands/fathers are getting killed,thrown poison at,beaten,etc., even young girls.
They know that when women are impowered, it's over for them.

#1520133 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2013-02-09 15:33:21 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Not going to happen.

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