Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1519162 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-02 20:08:17 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG, you sure are the last remaining Templar Knight.
From an atheist perspective you're basically saying "My god is superior because he doesn't write his own holy book, he just guides the hands of prophets."

:whatever:

hOG wrote:

Of course it is expected that immigrants do not come here to rob us blind and rape, pillage and plunder, but to live peacefully and integrate completely. If not, out ye go.
Am I not right?

But at what point does one cease to be an immigrant and gain the status of being Swedish? Could a child that came here at the age of 7 be deported when he's 30 even though he has a Swedish citizenship? If so then there's no equality before the law since you suggest different punishments for the same crimes.

We're not speaking about a crime having a range for the punishments (ex: 5-10 years) due to the circumstances surrounding that specific crime, instead you're asking for a completely different punishment based on irrelevant facts. A different punishment because he spent part of his childhood in a different country. I do not see how that is compatible with the aformentioned principle that all are equal before the law.

#1519167 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-02 20:30:39 (5 months ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

hOG, you sure are the last remaining Templar Knight.

Nice Breivik reference, bro, can I have some nazies with that.. :rolleyes:

Quote:

From an atheist perspective you're basically saying "My god is superior because he doesn't write his own holy book, he just guides the hands of prophets."

No wonder that is all you got from the previous post. Unable to refute it, unable to grasp it and reaching for straws. From one theist's perspective.. looks like you are giving up.

Quote:

But at what point does one cease to be an immigrant and gain the status of being Swedish?

Imo, that takes at least a generation first and foremost, and secondly it must be with respect to the cultural norms and values of x country. If a non-Western immigrant moves to a Western country like Sweden (assuming that it still is a Western country) then the cultural norms and values of Sweden must be respected. Those can be hard to understand for an immigrant at first, but I would expect an immigrant or an asylum seeker to try his or her absolute hardest.

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Could a child that came here at the age of 7 be deported when he's 30 even though he has a Swedish citizenship?

You tell me, but I don't have a problem with that, no.

Quote:

If so then there's no equality before the law since you suggest different punishments for the same crimes.

Then I guess someone can't be deported at the age of 30 when he came here as a boy of 7 in Sweden right now. But thankfully laws can be changed. Unlike in Islam..

Quote:

We're not speaking about a crime having a range for the punishments (ex: 5-10 years) due to the circumstances surrounding that specific crime, instead you're asking for a completely different punishment based on irrelevant facts. A different punishment because he spent part of his childhood in a different country. I do not see how that is compatible with the aformentioned principle that all are equal before the law.

Since when is this about 'we'?? You commented on something indirectly in parenthesis to what I have said some posts ago and I'm left to guess what that is that I wrote. If you have a problem with something I wrote, then point it out instead of making strawmen and assuming you won some sort of argument, because that's pretty transparent.

#1519176 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-02 21:19:46 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

No wonder that is all you got from the previous post. Unable to refute it, unable to grasp it and reaching for straws. From one theist's perspective.. looks like you are giving up.

What do you mean giving up? I just don't wish to argue for a religion I despise.

You're right in that I can't refute it because I cannot refute the truth. I never said that you were wrong just that you're arguing about a technicality.
Let me give you an example, the Qu'ran says that people who leave Islam should be given a week to convert back and if they don't do that then they should be cut down with a sword. Yet my parents has left Islam and still sometimes visit their relatives in Islamic countries without being murdered.
If what you were arguing for was more than a technicality, that a muslim can never take the Qu'ran with a pinch of salt. Then my entire family would be dead.

BUT, you are still correct in that the Qu'ran is said to be the word of god which makes doublethink (1984 style) a bit harder.

hOG wrote:

In that case, can an ethnic Swede be without this "Swedish status" if he's born and raised elsewhere and later returned to Sweden? And if he misbehaves, can he be deported?

hOG wrote:

Quote:

Could a child that came here at the age of 7 be deported when he's 30 even though he has a Swedish citizenship?

You tell me, but I don't have a problem with that, no.

I don't know if you've ever known any immigrants that have come to Sweden at a young age like that, but they can pretty much indistinguishable from native Swedes in knowledge and proficiency of the Swedish culture. Yet you would have such a person be deported to a country which he barely remembers anything of, a country to which he would be as foreign to as a newly arrived Somali tribalist would be foreign to Sweden.

hOG wrote:

Quote:

If so then there's no equality before the law since you suggest different punishments for the same crimes.

Then I guess someone can't be deported at the age of 30 when he came here as a boy of 7 in Sweden right now. But thankfully laws can be changed. Unlike in Islam..

So I was right. You don't give a fuck about the UN human rights convention that says;

"All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law."

hOG wrote:

Have you been drinking? I don't see where I assumed I won any arguments or where I made a strawman. I simply pointed out a flaw in your reasoning.

But perhaps my quotations were a bit sloppy so perhaps this will help you grasp what I wrote:

hOG wrote:

I do not want to remove the principle, you have misunderstood. Nor is it a break with the principle, but completely in line with the principle in fact and the law most importantly to pass a sentence that remains respectful to the limits of the law. You know as well as I that crime is very rarely set at X number of years or x number of $ fine, but instead it is x-y years or x-y $.

TheBlues wrote:

#1519183 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-02 22:31:46 (5 months ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

What do you mean giving up? I just don't wish to argue for a religion I despise.

I meant giving up and say all religions are equally revolting, which is not true. I'm not asking you to believe, just acknowledge that there is a difference between the religions of the world and it makes sense to criticize one religion more than others. It is so funny that some atheists can't do this, because they have such a high opinion of themselves and their call to objectivity.

Quote:

You're right in that I can't refute it because I cannot refute the truth. I never said that you were wrong just that you're arguing about a technicality.

Wrong. They are not technicalities. In the case of Islam antisemitism is mandated. Wife-beating is mandated. Killing homosexuals is mandated. Killing polytheists is mandated. Holy war is mandated. And so on. Those are not technicalities and you are saying you despise the religion of Islam right now, but in fact you are defending it by suggesting that it is mere technicality and thus more or less irrelevant. In my next post I will show you a picture from Iran completely uncensored, where young boys are hanged from cranes with referenced to the Quran, because they are homosexuals. Or I could show you, with reference to the Quran, the uncensored picture of four muhajedeen from Asia, where we see four decapitated heads on the ground along with the arms and one of them, the jihadists, holding a placard with reference to the terror-sura:

"When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." - Quran 8:12

A mere technicality for those who are not Muslims, like you and I, but Allah's word for those who believe and wish to carry out his will.

Are you fucking serious about technicalities? There is loads to be worried about and therefore loads to take into consideration when discussing the multicultural project and immigration/asylum policies.

Quote:

Let me give you an example, the Qu'ran says that people who leave Islam should be given a week to convert back and if they don't do that then they should be cut down with a sword. Yet my parents has left Islam and still sometimes visit their relatives in Islamic countries without being murdered.
If what you were arguing for was more than a technicality, that a muslim can never take the Qu'ran with a pinch of salt. Then my entire family would be dead.

Your parents moved to/or fled to Sweden. Not being respectful to the teaching of Muhammad nor the tradition of Islam, which is specifically setup so that believers are guided in all walks of life, means not really practicing Islam or being a bad Muslim, at best. Apostates are in danger if it becomes public knowledge that they have abandoned their faith completely. When visiting relatives do your mom wear a scarf, does she greet the men traditionally or does she shake their hand.. if your mother and father, including yourself, are true apostates and the rest of your family including your relatives, know about this and are okay with it, you are lucky to be born into a family, because that family is a part of a very small elite.

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BUT, you are still correct in that the Qu'ran is said to be the word of god which makes doublethink (1984 style) a bit harder.

That's a very vital difference, which sets the Quran apart from the Tanakh and the Bible and which has major repercussions for a possible reformation within Islam. Very hard to do, because the Quran understand itself as the literal word of Allah.

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In that case, can an ethnic Swede be without this "Swedish status" if he's born and raised elsewhere and later returned to Sweden? And if he misbehaves, can he be deported?

Immigrants could have double citizenship. There are also immigrants, which have no citizenship such as the Palestinians. They cannot be deported. Take that as answer or example that it would be very hard to deport such a citizen to any country if that person was born and raised here and only had one citizenship. Asylum seekers can be denied asylum or can have temporary visas. To answer your question, yes in theory.

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I disagree. You have problems with immigrants and crime and so do we and the countries that surround Sweden. Understanding culture of a country you have moved to take time and is of course individual and different from country to country, but Sweden is far from being the Shangri-la that you are trying to make it out to be. Also you are making the deported person into a victim. Why? We are talking about persons that have committed serious crimes, like gangrape, that have misused our trust again and again?? I guess those are technicalities to you..

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So I was right. You don't give a fuck about the UN human rights convention that says;

"All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law."

Correct. I don't believe I have ever said I care for Human Rights Organization, which is also governed by countries that abuse them. Why should they decide over the nation-states? I do however care about the principle that all people are equal and should be treated equally with respect to OUR law. If I have said something contrary to that in my posts, then you are going to have to quote me on that.

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Have you been drinking?

Incorrect. I am drinking right now.

Quote:

I don't see where I assumed I won any arguments or where I made a strawman. I simply pointed out a flaw in your reasoning.

But perhaps my quotations were a bit sloppy so perhaps this will help you grasp what I wrote:

I understand what you wrote and I stand by what I wrote.

//edited

I commented on something that you left hanging in a parenthesis and I'm now left hanging to guess what that was and so I wrote what I did. You have a problem with my response/guess to that, so I am not sure if I have said something previously that would provoke that, but fine.

I am asking that it is only fair that people who have sought asylum for example have their asylum revoked if they commit crime. I also consider it fair that immigrants that commit serious crimes face serious consequences. Especially because of the threat of terror we should consider to deport immigrants that have conspired against the safety of our nation. This is especially without problems if people have dual citizenship. It become more problematic if they have one or no citizenship. This is necessary, because some cultures and their religion have declared war on Western societies or simply cannot integrate with western ideals and values and in fact hate them and want them gone. You say this is an extra penalty, but I have to disagree. It is necessary to defend our border and the safety of our children. It also shows that whoever commits this crime or terror is more connected to his country of origin than the Western country he came to. All are equal according to the law and will be treated as a citizen. If you have dual citizenship you might risk getting one of them revoked. That is not breaking with that principle that everyone is equal, but instead it is taking into consideration the entire legal situation and it doesn't remove the chance of appeal either, which will always be there in a civilized society.

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-03 00:19:30

#1519190 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-02 23:03:00 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Instead of howling for more prison sentences and eroding the principle that each man is equal before the law (like hOG would have us do). We should severely limit immigration so we can afford to build a system that ensures that the immigrants that do come here integrate completely.
Am I not right?

You are partially right, we should severely limit immigration (from middle east and africa), but I reject the notion that we are somehow responsible to build a system which guarantees that immigrants integrate completely. Integration is not a one way street.
Also we already offer those who come here free education,almost free health system, human rights (including freedom of speecha and expression) which are protected by law, etc. etc. All things which are missing in the countries they come from.

Where is their responsibility on that ? If you youself don't make an effort by learning and respecting the society/culture you move into, then you won't integrate,no matter how much money we put into it.
Ofcourse we can finetune the system (it's not working at all right now),but in the end it's the people themselves who are responsible for how well they integrate, it requires a will to integrate and imo that is what is missing from people who represent certain cultures (ofcourse there are individuals who make an exception,but I talk about average masses).
There is one huge obsticle for the integration and that is islam, it's clearly visible in every western countries (usa is exception, but that is because it attracts educated people, people who are making the effort and usa don't take any shit and muslims who go there know it. Waving the islamofobia card in there is useless, here even the heads of states kneel in front of it).

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-02 23:07:33

#1519203 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-03 02:59:08 (5 months ago) - [Report]

In other news there was a Nazi marsh in Greece today.3-5 000 people according to antifa & 15 000-20 000 according to nationell ungdom. According to my sources there where a lot of Nazis from Nationell Ungdom there. It is time to sharpen the machete I say.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-03 03:07:27

#1519238 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-03 13:40:09 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570836-immigration-and-growing-inequality-are-making-nordics-less-homogeneous-ins-and

Quote:

Immigration and growing inequality are making the Nordics less homogeneous
Feb 2nd 2013

In Sweden 26% of all prisoners, and 50% of prisoners serving more than five years, are foreigners. Some 46% of the jobless are non-Europeans, and 40% of non-Europeans are classified as poor, compared with only 10% of native Swedes.

The decline is particularly marked among high-income earners. Immigration is also causing culture clashes. Nordics fervently believe in liberal values, especially sexual equality and freedom of speech, but many of the immigrants come from countries where men and women are segregated and criticising the prophet Muhammad is a serious offence.

Is it more enlightened to impose secular values on devout Muslims or to dilute liberal values in the name of multiculturalism? Trying to reconcile these contradictions can lead to strange results. Alarmed by reports of female genital mutilation, Nyamko Sabuni, a Swedish cabinet minister, suggested compulsory gynaecological examinations for all young girls in Sweden.

Very fast, Sniper, and thanks to your post I managed to spread it to various blogs and news outlets here, before it really hit. It was funny though to observe how the official PC friendly newspaper reacted. According to them the Economist didn't criticize the Nordic countries and their model at all. On the contrary nothing but praise from the Economist. So sad that you have to rely on blogs and other news outlets for the actual truth and actual newspapers won't give you the entire picture.

As for the reaction in Sweden, this is just out. In spite of the numbers from the Economist, eg. the Nordic model, a Swedish think-tank, just proved by playing a bit with numbers that those regions with more immigrants are better off economically than those with fewer immigrants: http://www.dn.se/debatt/sociala-problem … invandrare - conclusion: the immigration debate is skewed.

The Economist wrote:

"The idea of lean Nordic government will come as a shock both to French leftists who dream of socialist Scandinavia and to American conservatives who fear that Barack Obama is bent on �Swedenisation�. They are out of date. In the 1970s and 1980s the Nordics were indeed tax-and-spend countries. Sweden�s public spending reached 67% of GDP in 1993. Astrid Lindgren, the inventor of Pippi Longstocking, was forced to pay more than 100% of her income in taxes. But tax-and-spend did not work: Sweden fell from being the fourth-richest country in the world in 1970 to the 14th in 1993.

Since then the Nordics have changed course�mainly to the right. Government�s share of GDP in Sweden, which has dropped by around 18 percentage points, is lower than France�s and could soon be lower than Britain�s. Taxes have been cut: the corporate rate is 22%, far lower than America�s. The Nordics have focused on balancing the books. While Mr Obama and Congress dither over entitlement reform, Sweden has reformed its pension system. Its budget deficit is 0.3% of GDP; America�s is 7%."

...

The new Nordic model is not perfect. Public spending as a proportion of GDP in these countries is still higher than this newspaper would like, or indeed than will be sustainable. Their levels of taxation still encourage entrepreneurs to move abroad: London is full of clever young Swedes. Too many people�especially immigrants�live off benefits. The pressures that have forced their governments to cut spending, such as growing global competition, will force more change. The Nordics are bloated compared with Singapore, and they have not focused enough on means-testing benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigratio … mmigration
"Since the early 1970s, immigration to Sweden has been mostly due to refugee migration and family reunification from countries in the Middle East and Latin America."

#1519297 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-03 19:08:24 (5 months ago) - [Report]

In Swedish:
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/invandrarna-f … emkommuner

In google-english
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl … emkommuner

SVT wrote:

"Most social problems in cities with few immigrants"

"Narrowly focused immigration policy" Most places in Sweden that has the greatest social problems has few immigrants, says the Head of the Reform Institute Stefan F�lster in a new report. - Many immigrants pull up some places, says F�lster to SVT News.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-03 19:09:48

#1519303 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 19:22:02 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

In Swedish:
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/invandrarna-f … emkommuner

In google-english
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl … emkommuner

SVT wrote:

for that study.

Ofcourse the small communities in rural areas which have only handfull old people and no jobs etc. are going to be on top of the list when you measure income,health,jobs etc.
It's kinda sad that sweden has to rely on such low tactics when it tries to hide the problems it has with immigrants, gobbels would be proud.

I would like to see the conclusions (evidence) which say that it's the amount of immigrants which is the reason why those areas are on top and have less problems (problems they measured).
How is the amount of immigrants affecting on them, would they have less or more problems without immigrants ? That would really tell how the immigration affects.
I refuse to believe that this kind of propaganda works in sweden.

Now the study is worth a study which states that areas where are less cows have more high income citizens, or the more ice cream is sold, the more peple drown.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-03 19:43:33

#1519307 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-03 19:45:14 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Ofcourse the small communities in rural areas which have only handfull old people and no jobs etc. are going to be on top of the list when you measure income,health,jobs etc.
It's kinda sad that sweden has to rely on such low tactics when it tries to hide the problems it has with immigrants, gobbels would be proud.

I would like to see the conclusions which say that it's the amount of immigrants which is the reason why those areas are on top and have less problems (problems they measured).
Now the study is worth a study which states that areas where are less cows have more high income citizens, or the more ice cream is sold, the more peple drown.

You speak nothing but pure bullshit. Have you even read the entire article before you decided to start defecating through your keyboard?

Quote:

This surprising result does not imply that integration problems for some immigrant groups are negligible, he writes, but to many Swedish cities with few immigrants have serious problems of similar nature.

- What surprised me was that it is not at all the immigrant towns that stand out with a lot of social problems. There are as many "no immigrant" communities where many have outstanding debts, where many young people do not complete high school, where life expectancy is short and so on, says Stefan F�lster to SVT News.

Now you can clearly see that his point is not to hide the problem with immigration but to inform people that the bottom rung of society is not entirely composed or caused by immigrants. This is a response to such arguments uttered by Sverige Demokraterna. Should we not correct their lies?
Your outright dismissal of this should be a fucking wake up call that you're getting severely biased in regards to this discussion, to the point where you won't even listen to anyone whose argument doesn't directly support your cause.

You've basically turned into Timex.

Last edited by TheBlues at 2013-02-03 19:50:02

#1519310 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 19:54:06 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

Now you can clearly see that his point is not to hide the problem with immigration but to inform people that the bottom rung of society is not entirely composed or caused by immigrants.

I thought everybody knew that without this kind of bs study (especially in this thread where it was posted).
AlsoI don't see "we already have problems" as a very good defence on bringing more problems.

Quote:

Your outright dismissal of this should be a fucking wake up call that you're getting severely biased in regards to this discussion, to the point where you won't even listen to anyone whose argument doesn't support your view.

I reject a study where the headline states something which has no meaning at all when it comes to problems on immigration (which is discussed in this thread,nobody here claims that there are no other problems in our societies).
As I already pointed out, they should have studied how the amount of immigration affects on that area where there are immigrants, then we would know how the immigration affects.

Basic example using a scale form 0-100 as value representing social well being.

Area A has a value of 50 and no immigrants
Area B has a value of 85 and no immigrants.
Area B gets immigrants and it's value drops to 70.
Conclusion, areas where are immigrants rank better in the social well being rank.
Thats misleading and don't address the affect of immigration on any way.

To study the affect of immigration, one must study how it affects where it is present.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-03 20:17:56

#1519315 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-03 20:29:26 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

I thought everybody knew that without this kind of bs study.

Sverige Demokrater do not know this. Have you not seen their debates here in Sweden?

sniperfin9 wrote:

I reject a study where the headline states something which has no meaning at all when it comes to problems on immigration.

You mean to say that you reject a study because a journalist decided to write a shitty sensationalist headline? Do you also reject the contents of books because the cover doesn't have fancy pictures?

sniperfin wrote:

As I already pointed out, they should have studied how the amount of immigration affects on that area where there are immigrants, then we would know how the immigration affects.

I know what you mean but that was not the point of the study at all. What they meant to do was to show regional factors to poverty and social problems. What they discovered was that for regional social problems there are certain factors that always have to be present. High level of immigrants are not part of this factor, there are instead other economic factors at play.

In fact, Solna municipality which has a very high level of immigrants is one of the richest municipalities in entire Sweden.

#1519320 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-03 20:37:32 (5 months ago) - [Report]

The main reason that you can call this study "true" is because of one simple reason. If an area can afford to take immigrants, they more or less have to.

#1519323 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-03 20:47:49 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@Arnemes

No it is not like that. A municipality gets cash from the state when they take immigrants. This cash can go to many things. Especially the crappy A-kassa and the gaining welfare problem is forcing municipalitys to open up refugee camps to not bankrupt.

#1519328 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 20:58:42 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

You mean to say that you reject a study because a journalist decided to write a shitty sensationalist headline? Do you also reject the contents of books because the cover doesn't have fancy pictures?

I reject it as bringing anything usefull to this threads discussion. Aka it brings nothing to this thead, it's value for this discussion is zero.

Quote:

What they discovered was that for regional social problems there are certain factors that always have to be present. High level of immigrants are not part of this factor, there are instead other economic factors at play.

But they didn't study how immigration affects on those areas where it's present, does it make it better or worse, and thats the key for discussion in this thead.
Do you really say that differences in cultures (islam vs europe) are no factor when we talk about problems with immigration, come on now, get real.
I thought the head ache excuse for rapes was the ultimate low, but now this.

Also immigration (islam) brings problems which are not related to social well being (income,housing etc.), but are related to other things (freedom of speech and expression, women rights, gays etc.).

Quote:

The main reason that you can call this study "true" is because of one simple reason. If an area can afford to take immigrants, they more or less have to.

A very very good point. Immigrants are most likely placed in better areas than bad.
For example here in finland most are here in the capital area (which is the most rich area in finland) and I suggest a similar study here would provide similar results (since we have lots of places up north where there are high % unemployment due the fact that factories have closed etc.).

As I said, the study is irrelevant when it comes to talking about problems with immigration.

#1519335 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-03 21:16:09 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

Yes they are bribed which makes it easier for the sceptical to accept them. But they also have to because of pressure on the politics to do what's "right" no matter what the popular opinion says.

#1519341 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-03 21:53:41 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

As I said, the study is irrelevant when it comes to talking about problems with immigration.

Perhaps but it's relevant to combat the Sverige Demokrat argument that Sweden would have no poverty whatsoever if they hadn't accepted any immigrants. Therefore it's highly relevant to this thread.

sniperfin wrote:

Do you really say that differences in cultures (islam vs europe) are no factor when we talk about problems with immigration, come on now, get real.
I thought the head ache excuse for rapes was the ultimate low, but now this.

Also immigration (islam) brings problems which are not related to social well being (income,housing etc.), but are related to other things (freedom of speech and expression, women rights, gays etc.).

Wow, when have I ever said that headaches are an excuse for rapes? I said that psychological stress accounts for poor results in school. That's the most severe use of strawman that I've seen ever.

And Islam may be a factor just as Christianity may be a factor. Do not forget how Ugandan Christians murder gays for sport. Surely it's fundamental religions that cause those difficulties whether it's among fundamentalist Christian Swedes (Livets ord) or fundamentalist Muslim immigrants?

By the way, I'm curious. When exactly was it that hOG managed to convert you to Christianity? You've become an excellent footsoldier of the faith.

Last edited by TheBlues at 2013-02-03 22:03:20

#1519343 by unknown[81460] at 2013-02-03 21:56:38 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

I reject it as bringing anything usefull to this threads discussion. Aka it brings nothing to this thead, it's value for this discussion is zero.

That's the single most ignorant comment I have read in my life.

Lets have a discussion but all that can be debated is what I wish to discuss. Sounds like the extremists to me.

#1519344 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 22:10:08 (5 months ago) - [Report]

BoB wrote:

sniperfin wrote:

I reject it as bringing anything usefull to this threads discussion. Aka it brings nothing to this thead, it's value for this discussion is zero.

That's the single most ignorant comment I have read in my life.

Lets have a discussion but all that can be debated is what I wish to discuss. Sounds like the extremists to me.

If the discussion is about something and somebody then talks about something else (something totally irrelevant, it does not touch the subject in hand),how is that relevant and why should it be taken into consideration in that thread ?
Also, when I have said that he can't post / discuss anything I don't wish ?
I just reject his study as a valid argument for this discussion, pretty normal stuff in debat.

But hey, don't let anything be on the way in your hate mission, mr. bridge builder.

Quote:

Do not forget how Ugandan Christians murder gays for sport. Surely it's fundamental religions that cause those difficulties whether it's among fundamentalist Christian Swedes (Livets ord) or fundamentalist Muslim immigrants

And belive me if there will be immigrants from uganda who come to europe and spread anti gay message and even attack gays, I will speak against them as loudly as I speak agains muslims who do the same thing currently in europe.
The fact still is that Islam causes much more trouble in europe than christianity, there is a huge difference.
This thread still is "Multiculturalism has failed in Europe", uganda is not part of europe.
Islam however plays a role why multiculturalism has failed in europe.
If you want to talk about how christianity has failed in uganda, make a thread, I will critisize christianity with you there.
Or about christianity and how it causes failure in USA, I will be there too critisizing it.
Or how catholic church (the largest horde of christians are catholic) has caused and causes horrible agany among the victims of pedofile priests, I will be there too.
But in this thread I stick on the issue in hand.

Quote:

And Islam may be a factor

Ignorance is a bliss.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-03 22:23:34

#1519345 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-03 22:11:48 (5 months ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

By the way, I'm curious. When exactly was it that hOG managed to convert you to Christianity? You've become an excellent footsoldier of the faith.

When it happened is between Sniper and I, but I'll never forget Paris.

#1519348 by unknown[81460] at 2013-02-03 22:23:04 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

BoB wrote:

sniperfin wrote:

I reject it as bringing anything usefull to this threads discussion. Aka it brings nothing to this thead, it's value for this discussion is zero.

That's the single most ignorant comment I have read in my life.

Lets have a discussion but all that can be debated is what I wish to discuss. Sounds like the extremists to me.

rich coming from Mr "i hate everything but science and even then only when it suits"

You really like the sound of your own voice.

Change the feckin record........

#1519349 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-03 22:38:05 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Just look at Eastern Europe and how gays are being treated there and how powerful the Orthodox and Catholic church is there! Don't tell me that Islam has an equal grasp on the western part of Europe and do not tell me that it does as much damage there. Because you would be lying.
By the way, could you outline exactly what kind of trouble Islam causes in Europe beyond the poison that all religions bring with them?

sniperfin wrote:

TheBlues wrote:

And Islam may be a factor

Ignorance is a bliss.

Fine, Islam is a hindrance for integration. Happy?

But I don't believe that the damage it does is nearly as severe as you do. The immigrants who get to Sweden at a young age or second generation immigrants like myself rarely believe in Islam. It does not account for the "failure" of multiculturalism. It's a scapegoat and you've fallen for its allure.

#1519357 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 22:55:28 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

When it happened is between Sniper and I, but I'll never forget Paris.

You remembered little snipers name !

Quote:

Now you have to provide the evidence which shows that there is a correlation between hating the gays in eastern europe and catholic & orthodox church.
I know that in ex russian countries gays have much harder time than in the "main europe",but atleast they are not publicly hung there by the government like in many islamic countries.
Also in the main european countries gays have been treated well for a decades,but now just recently there has started to be issues, and thats mainly because of islam, the amount of muslim immigrants has surpassed a certain limit and it shows.
Yes, there are places in europe where gays have hard time, but in the mainland they have not, until recently and that is mainly caused by islam.

Quote:

By the way, could you outline exactly what kind of trouble Islam causes in Europe beyond the poison that all religions bring with them?

Treatment of women (both muslim and non muslim).
Treatment of jews and gays.
Violence against those who critisize islam.
Radicalisation, there are lot's of mosques where hate speeches are given young muslime men are turned into western hating extremists who then bully both muslims and non muslims.
Isolation to own muslim communities where people practise own laws (force marriages,genital mutilation,honor killing, etc.) based on their culture.
Just to name few there, you get the picture.

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Fine, Islam is a hindrance for integration. Happy?

Very.

Quote:

But I don't believe that the damage it does is nearly as severe as you do.

Fair enough, then we have something to debate about.
I don't see islam as hindrance, I see it as an obsticle which is non passable (currently atleast).
Only a christianity like reformation could change the situation, but I don't see it realistic,something really dramatic would have to happen for that.
Also a much more hard selection would help (take more people who are educated but in danger, rather than almost only take people (men) who have no skills at all).
More women and kids. Just like the head of the UN african aid platform (a woman) said, the biggest obsticle for africa to ever catch the rest of the world is african man.

Quote:

The immigrants who get to Sweden at a young age or second generation immigrants like myself rarely believe in Islam

Then clearly we are not talking about Islam(muslims) then, when I talk about islam, I talk about people who belive in it, and they are the ones causing problems.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-03 23:08:12

#1519362 by unknown[81460] at 2013-02-03 23:15:20 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Is this as big a problem as facism ? I am friends with a few muslims and it is the case they get abuse all the time. Ive never seen anything the other way about. Im sure there are places in the UK where there are problems but luckily not here. Armchair Nazi scum bags are a bigger problem and bible biggots.

Rather than the barrage of quotes and stats (we all know how reliable they are)I for one would like to hear from people with first hand experiance of any issues. After all any idiot can google quotes and pretend they know it all. Only a fool allows their lifes and beliefs to be dictated by the press.

#1519365 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-03 23:33:20 (5 months ago) - [Report]

BoB wrote:

Sure there are isolated problems with right wing extremists too (breivik for example), but they don't form isolated living areas where people live under their own rules.
Where 15 year old girls are force married and then killed when they leave the husband who beats them. Where armchair doctors cut pussies.

Quote:

Rather than the barrage of quotes and stats (we all know how reliable they are)

If sweden provides stats where they have count the inmates in their prisoners and it says that 40% of them are immigrants, why don't you trust that ?
Or studies where ordinary people are asked how they view the matters and 3/4 thinks that islam is not compatible with western justice democracies.
I rather rely on stats than on subjective views on matters. Stats tell the story of big picture.
But ofcourse the stats alone are not interesting, the reasons behind those stats are what matters.
And the fact is that for example in sweden the jews have difficulties with muslims rather than with neo nazis. Same thing in neatherlands. As one example.
Also in every country in europe (and in UN) muslims are the ones demanding districtions on freedom of speech and expression, nazies are not.

Quote:

Only a fool allows their lifes and beliefs to be dictated by the press.

True, but equally only a fool believes that the world is everywhere similar as it is around him/her.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-02-03 23:37:01

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