Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1518811 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-31 14:39:58 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

Yes exactly. There is many theories in that study and they quote many scientists. It is not only rapists a immigrant witness also gets less trust and so on.

And if that is the strongest theory in that book then the other theories must be equally or exceptionally weaker than the "unjust" one. Regardless, it is not really relevant whether the justice system deals harsher (not unjust !) with immigrants than ethnics Danes, Swedes, Brits, etc. You would think that people that emigrate or seek refuge in another country do so for legitimate reasons and not to commit crime or abuse the country they have moved to. If they do, and statistics and evidence have been brought to you, that the countries that surround Sweden, are full of examples that immigrants and asylum seekers do just that in great numbers - then I certainly don't mind that the law comes down on them much harder than with anybody else. As an example rape can give you between 3-6 years. That book you mention probably shows that statistically immigrants who rape women for example, or otherwise abuse the country they have moved to, are generally given the max permissible within the law, ie 6 years.

I'm perfectly fine with that and wish they would raise the max sentences actually. Considering that Sweden has a problem with rape (and immigrants/refugees) I don't understand why anyone would be against coming down on that..

Last edited by hOG at 2013-01-31 14:43:36

#1518938 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-01 01:03:13 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

I'm perfectly fine with that and wish they would raise the max sentences actually. Considering that Sweden has a problem with rape (and immigrants/refugees) I don't understand why anyone would be against coming down on that..

Well I am =). The first question we need to ask our self is what a prison is, what is the goal of the prison? Is it to hide away criminals? Or does it really have a bigger purpose.

The goal of a verdict is not to punish the criminal. It is to make him stop doing crimes all together.This brings more questions. How do we heal this damaged soul? Why is he or she committing this crime? How do we stop it? The goal of a prison is to catch the second victim, heal him and to make him a law abiding citizen again.

A guy robbing people in the street at night pobably does not want to do this. He has probably bin forced to do this as a last resort. We need to make sure that a human being do not need to be in a position to have to make a decision like this. Especially we shall not put him with others that has evolved this profession as to an art.

Rape is harder though. There is much we need to do this and a lot of people smarter than me has come up with nil. There was a study in Denmark that I have mentioned before that claims that chemical castration is a very successful solution. But this can not ever apply to a first time offender.

We really need to work on our prison system but also criminality in general is linked to how our society is. This you can see if you analyse what has happened during the last six years in Sweden. What happens when you let the banks loose on a working society.

I would also like to take the time to quote a dead voice. A former prime-minister of Sweden, Gunned down in the street some 25 years ago. I think what he said back in 1973 applies to this time more than ever.

You can listen to him speak in Swedish here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA2wroKafss

Or just read his words in English here translated with google translate and corrected by me:

Olof Palme wrote:

Democracy is firmly rooted in this country. We respect the fundamental rights and freedoms. Turbid racial theories have never found a foothold. We regard our self as open-minded and tolerant.

But it isn't as simple as that. The prejudice doesn't need to be anchored in some hideous theory. It has a lot more simple origin. The prejudice has always been rooted in everyday life. It germinates in the workplace and in the neighbourhood. It is an outlet for own failures and disappointments. It is above all an expression of unknowingness and fear. Unknowingness of other people's individuality, fear of losing a position, a social privilege, a first right of refusal.

A person's colour, race, language and place of birth has nothing with human qualities to do. To rate people with such a standard is in strong contrast to the principle of human equality. But it is shamefully easy to use for those who feel inferior - at work, in social life, in the competition for girl or boy.

Therefore the prejudice is always there, lurking. Even in an enlightened society. It can flare out in a word, a short sentence. Maybe the one whom said it did not mean it as bad as it came out. But for the one that feels targeted it might re-open wounds that will never heal.

Most of us humans have a need to claim ourselves against others. And so there it is -prejudice- against the different -the foreigner, the stranger- available as a last resort.

Also I get the feeling that you only see Muslims when we talk about immigrants. Most are not offended when you speak about Mohammed. Most of the youth are like these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36MO0Uuc … ature=fvwp (at 3:40 Promoe makes a appearance, I suggest to listen to him).

Quote:

they call it the Swedish-hostility
if you show some humanity
but I say they do not know
anything about Swedish identity
nothing about SOLIDARITY
nothing about those whom no one sees
mocked, frozen out and silenced

I see lasermen, still smell the gas
2012 and they still speak about races
I speak about rage an expected consequence
my brother is a native Swedish but still has to go home
so I've burned your flag ever since the cradle
it does not stand for the people
it represents the king standing and talking shit
fucking strippers and bribing gangsters
Not long ago his ugly dad hung with brown Nazis
when will people wake up and stop tailing
I remember in the 90s how they stood there whith their Heil
Now they sit in the government it is difficult to smile

This is how I feel. I usually sooner or later ask my darker friends if they want to be called second generation immigrant or "svartskalle" (blackhead, as bad as saying nigger) and I have yet to meet the one whom actually prefers the term second generation immigrant.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-01 03:22:24

#1518946 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-01 06:01:49 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Belnick wrote:

we will see if you feel the same way when three or four rapes you(they don't care if you are a man, it is only homosexual if you are being penetrated, not the other way around.....) or your mother is gangraped.
It changes perspective when it happens to ones self or the ppl you care for.

I doubt Elin Krantz(beware if you google, corpse pictures) parents want open borders......

There was recently an article released on SVD about a ethnically Swedish man who repeatedly raped his wife and 9 year old kid. By your logic all ethnically Swedish men are rapists and pedophiles.
Do you see how your argument can be turned around? I seriously hope you understand how stupid you are.

beblebox wrote:

You're only ever a second generation immigrant if you're of a different "race" than Caucasian, and thusly you will be judged.

#1518962 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-01 14:07:30 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

Well I am =). The first question we need to ask our self is what a prison is, what is the goal of the prison? Is it to hide away criminals? Or does it really have a bigger purpose.

Those are different questions from the multiculturalism one. It should not be law abiding taxpayers obligation to waste money on the re-programming of immigrants, who we expect come here to make a living and contribute to society in a positive way, but who haven't and instead have gone to prison for very serious crimes instead.

Immigrants have no excuse. Throw them out of the country they moved to and back to their country of origin, and if that isn't possible, invoke harsh penalties on them financially and their families. We need to come down hard on those people and make a point. Numbers have also shown that before when we had a middle-right government in power we had fewer applicants. As soon as power shifted in 2011 here to middle-left and that government started making lesser restrictions, there were more applications. So news travels fast around the world in so far the Scandinavian countries are concerned.
Asylum seekers can be excused as per the law, eg. mental illness. In that case they are off to psychiatric wards or something instead of prisons, if they commit crime. After that cancel their asylum (a right any country has according to UN).

Quote:

The goal of a verdict is not to punish the criminal. It is to make him stop doing crimes all together.This brings more questions. How do we heal this damaged soul? Why is he or she committing this crime? How do we stop it? The goal of a prison is to catch the second victim, heal him and to make him a law abiding citizen again.

A guy robbing people in the street at night pobably does not want to do this. He has probably bin forced to do this as a last resort. We need to make sure that a human being do not need to be in a position to have to make a decision like this. Especially we shall not put him with others that has evolved this profession as to an art.

Rape is harder though.

You cannot and never will get rid of crime. It is human nature. Unless you eliminate free will, which you only sort of do when you put people in prisons.

That is why the punch is useful and talk, dialogue, etc. are not. If looking at this as a problem - crime - you cannot talk your way out of the problem. You cannot analyze your way out of it. It happens and will happen again and again. A wound of any society which will never heal.

You can have programs in prisons that attempt to re-socialize people. In the case of non-Western prisoners that is very hard. Especially Muslim ones. For example, every third prisoner here is an immigrant according to official statistics (http://www.bt.dk/krimi/nye-tal-chokerer … udlaending). And then you have prison imams handing out Quran's and preaching to them as well meaning they might get radicalized or influenced by the logic of this holy book.

Imams in prisons. Why? Because there are a lot of Muslims in prisons obviously. France has them, we have them and I believe you have them. And can an Imam really go against the theology of his own holy books..

For example, in some parts of Sweden, as well as here, there are huge problems with antisemitism coming from Muslims. And both the Quran and the ahadiths preach hatred towards Jews, eg.

Jews leave Swedish city after sharp rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes

"Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177
- http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_4_52.php

"Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly."
Quran, 5:82
- http://www.alquran-english.com/5-al-maidah/

The HOUR is judgment day. When Muslims will go to meet Allah in their heaven. It will first come into fruition until all Jews are killed and then even mother nature will go against the Jews calling them out to be stoned to death. That is in the most trustworthy of the ahadith by the way. Then in the most sacred book of Islam, the Quran, the most hatred enemy of the Muslims is pointed out as the Jews and the polytheists.

It is pretty unsettling. Especially considering that Imams handle the resocialisation process of non-Western immigrants.

It is about culture, in this case non-Western culture.

Quote:

There was a study in Denmark that I have mentioned before that claims that chemical castration is a very successful solution. But this can not ever apply to a first time offender.

That was in concern to pedophiles, I think.

Quote:

Oluf Palme quote

I remember Palme. What he said doesn't apply to today, because it no longer pays off to be so open against the foreign and the strange. It was in the 80s that the Scandinavian countries changed their immigration policies to be able to handle and welcome more immigrants and asylum seekers.

Quote:

Also I get the feeling that you only see Muslims when we talk about immigrants. Most are not offended when you speak about Mohammed.

That's correct. Of non-Western immigrants the cultural community causing the most problems, in connection with crime for example or the community having the most problems integrating, that's without question the Muslim community. This is what I have been trying to say these last posts, but a point which you have sort of ignored in the case of Sweden.

It is not my experience either that Muslims are offended when I -talk about- Muhammad. But if I want to mock, make fun of, blaspheme, ridicule or criticize their prophet some of them get more than offended. The difference between Western and Islamic culture is truly experienced. Fatwa, jihad, terror.. they have institutionalized censorship. Why mock, make fun of, blaspheme, ridicule, criticize? It is poison to a free society that must be rooted out with raw humor and illustrating free speech to them in this way by the use of what they deem as "blasphemy". In the long run you do them a favor by taking that prophet of theirs down from his pedestal.

Quote:

Most of the youth are like these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36MO0Uuc � ature=fvwp (at 3:40 Promoe makes a appearance, I suggest to listen to him).

Nice rhymes, but too fast for me. And longbeard there is wrong to make yet another attempt at association to Nazism. It completely misses the point of why we are even discussing this in the first place: why multiculturalism is a failure.

Quote:

I don't call myself ethnic whatever either or white-ass-cracker. Some immigrants like to refer to themselves as svartskalle or in my language "perker". Just as in English, 'nigga'. In my experience most prefer the term Swede, Dane, Finnish or whatever, I don't really care personally. Second generation is simply a professional category, which is used by journalists, statisticians, etc. so that people better understand what they mean, and so you can compare between 1st and 3rd. If you eliminate those categories you have little ground for making discussions or having debates.

Last edited by hOG at 2013-02-01 14:15:17

#1519040 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-01 21:06:33 (5 months ago) - [Report]

http://www.economist.com/news/special-r … us-ins-and

Quote:

Immigration and growing inequality are making the Nordics less homogeneous
Feb 2nd 2013

In Sweden 26% of all prisoners, and 50% of prisoners serving more than five years, are foreigners. Some 46% of the jobless are non-Europeans, and 40% of non-Europeans are classified as poor, compared with only 10% of native Swedes.

The decline is particularly marked among high-income earners. Immigration is also causing culture clashes. Nordics fervently believe in liberal values, especially sexual equality and freedom of speech, but many of the immigrants come from countries where men and women are segregated and criticising the prophet Muhammad is a serious offence.

Is it more enlightened to impose secular values on devout Muslims or to dilute liberal values in the name of multiculturalism? Trying to reconcile these contradictions can lead to strange results. Alarmed by reports of female genital mutilation, Nyamko Sabuni, a Swedish cabinet minister, suggested compulsory gynaecological examinations for all young girls in Sweden.

#1519045 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2013-02-01 21:48:13 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570836-immigration-and-growing-inequality-are-making-nordics-less-homogeneous-ins-and
:

in a few years even you Sniper will start to question your socialistic forms of government as you become more "multicultural" and realize certain cultures are more than happy living comfortably poor off your hard work. When your demographic start to get like ours you will better understand why we are the way we are about government handouts.

Last edited by qbert95 at 2013-02-01 21:48:54

#1519048 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-02-01 22:39:45 (5 months ago) - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

sniperfin wrote:

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570836-immigration-and-growing-inequality-are-making-nordics-less-homogeneous-ins-and
:

Im not that kind of socialist as you might think. I am pro government taking care of people, but only for people who really are in the need of help. For example a family with 3 kids, single parent mom works in a low salary job which is just enough to bring the very basic food on the table after rent,electic bill etc. are payed.
In that kind of situation a help from the system which provides the kids decent clothes every now and then,even a normal holiday weekend to some ordinary resource, and so on.
Or if a family where father suddenly losts his job he had for 20 years gets help for a while so they don't lose their house before the father gets a new job.
For grown hairy men who are too lazy to work, just the basic basic minimum.
But currently thats not how things are, the lazy men get more and that is shit.

#1519050 by TheBlues (Power User) at 2013-02-01 22:59:29 (5 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

...

How typical of this discussion for you to quote just those statistics out of that long article. Typical plebeian propaganda. I would explain it further but I've already done so many times before in this thread.

However what I thought was the best part in that article was this:

Quote:

"Per Brinkemo is a former journalist whose life was changed when he wrote a book about a Somali boy who was brought up in war-torn Mogadishu. He now runs an organisation that specialises in helping Somali refugees from the basement of a Rosengard block of flats. The centre�s walls are decorated with pictures of high-ranking visitors and prizes awarded to Mr Brinkemo. But he is no fan of government policies, pointing out that politicians have little sense of how difficult it is to integrate Somalis into Swedish society. They hail from nomadic societies where trust is reserved for the clan, literacy is rare and timekeeping is rudimentary. Three-quarters of Somali children drop out of school. �For Somali immigrants [coming to Sweden] is like being transported to Mars,� he says."

Because it highlights the point you're trying to make, but in a much clearer fashion. Mass immigration without a proper intregration infrastructure will only damage the Scandinavian values that I think we all hold dear. We can't expect people to instantly adapt to a place so different from the environment they grew up in.

Instead of howling for more prison sentences and eroding the principle that each man is equal before the law (like hOG would have us do). We should severely limit immigration so we can afford to build a system that ensures that the immigrants that do come here integrate completely.
Am I not right?

#1519057 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-01 23:30:18 (5 months ago) - [Report]

TheBlues wrote:

Instead of howling for more prison sentences and eroding the principle that each man is equal before the law (like hOG would have us do). We should severely limit immigration so we can afford to build a system that ensures that the immigrants that do come here integrate completely.
Am I not right?

Non-plebeian, #2 is what I have been saying all along. Only you can be both a howler and tough on immigration at the same time. I do not want to remove the principle, you have misunderstood. Nor is it a break with the principle, but completely in line with the principle in fact and the law most importantly to pass a sentence that remains respectful to the limits of the law. You know as well as I that crime is very rarely set at X number of years or x number of $ fine, but instead it is x-y years or x-y $. Criminals, regardless of color or odor, are not given the same sentences. If you do not see anything wrong with being tough on immigration, apparently, then you should see the logic in that as well. Of course it is expected that immigrants do not come here to rob us blind and rape, pillage and plunder, but to live peacefully and integrate completely. If not, out ye go.
Am I not right?

#1519068 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 00:47:43 (5 months ago) - [Report]

I was quite comfortable with how much it was six or seven years ago which means about half. But we also need a second vote about our membership in EU. It has not given us what we expected and I am afraid that we did not know what we voted about. We can keep the Scandinavian trade system that we always have had and focus on restoring our farms and industry's.

We need to focus on how the flats are built and build many new flats in the cities.

Also regarding this subject about the mosques there was a interesting program on SVT where they went back one year later and checked up how girls are being treated Link Swedish Public Service Not sure if you can see it in all Scandinavia but I think so.

It became clear that we need to show our support to the feminist movement within Islam in Sweden. Fazeela Selberg Zaib is one Muslim female feminist blogger that they pointed at as someone that tries to organise a more equal situation within the religion. I do think this is something that they need to do them self but there should be some kind of donation campaign to them.

We also need to increase how much money we send to SIDA and Olof Palmes Center. 5% of GDP is what we should give. Nothing less, nothing more. Especially we need to focus on desalting seawater around Africa and India and we should run the projects our self, not give money to other governments.

Edit:
Also The Lost Female Scholars of Islam

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-02 02:42:18

#1519078 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 05:41:50 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

I think that SIDA should try to solve the corruption problem before asking for more cash. Far to much is sponsoring dictators around the world.

Also, how do you suggest the finance to build new flats? I agree that it's needed but it's also very expensive and our last major project(million program) is regarded as a huge failure.

One other thing that I could add is that it seams that a lot of children "from" middle east/north African countries are troublemakers even in first grade, how do you suggest we solve that problem?

Last edited by Arnemes at 2013-02-02 05:52:59

#1519081 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 06:30:12 (5 months ago) - [Report]

@Arnemes
Define the corruption problem. As you might have noticed I was talking about Sida doing the jobs them self. There is two types of aid multilateral aid and bilateral. I have seen lots awesome projects within SIDA. But yes Sweden needs to sort out the corruption that the years of the individual has brought us. Politicians selling out parts of our publicly own companies to their own mates for breadcrumbs like if it was Russia 91.

Just look how the tpb case was handled. The police making the investigation pulled a massive contract for hollywood. The people deciding the verdict did the same. Not to mention what has happened with Telia since it got privatised. I think we should really consider a jury system instead of the one we have now since we have forced corruption upon our nation.

We have a minister of foreign affairs that acted financial hit-man back in the 90s and we still have not executed him for treason. But we should have seen that one coming.

The miljonprogrammet is not really considered a huge failure. Sure the industrial design is very ugly but it is only the places where we built all the flats in one place that are really considered bad and that is at highest 30% of all flats. It would not have costed much more than what we are paying house owners to repair their houses. It would have employed the same people and we would have bin able to boost the Swedish iron, carpenter and forest industry. The Swedish style, spend when times are bad and save when they are good.

On the last point. Seems? Can you provide any evidence of this?

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-02 07:04:51

#1519085 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 07:25:53 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Didn't SIDA quite recently introduce the "report corruption function" because far to much disappeared?

The current legal system works quite well, not sure how they managed to fail that hard in the tpb trials thought. But it works well enough in general imo.

The reason miljonprogrammet "failed" was because they build unattractive apartments in unattractive places. Which only made the segregation worse.

I unfortunately don't have any real evidence to the last point. The reason is that it's what I've heard from people working with children in different schools around where i live. Might be local but I'm not so sure.

#1519087 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 07:40:39 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Arnemes wrote:

The reason miljonprogrammet "failed" was because they build unattractive apartments in unattractive places. Which only made the segregation worse.

Yes this third of the million flats/houses we built was a pretty big failure. When we are at it and building new ones we should spread the family's out in the new flats all over the cities before levelling the old ones to the ground.

I've never heard abowut this corruption thing and would love to get more information about this.

Much of what is this project we do not even realise is a part of it.

But yes- Tensta, Roseng�rd, Rinkeby, Bergsj�n, Fr�lunda and other places with these types of flats needs our attention. It has a Key role in sorting out our integration problems.

Actually mentioned the role they had here two months ago.
http://www.torrentbytes.net/forum_view … 62#1507162

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-02 07:51:50

#1519088 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:11:10 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

But yes- Tensta, Roseng�rd, Rinkeby, Bergsj�n, Fr�lunda and other places with these types of flats needs our attention. It has a Key role in sorting out our integration problems.

Actually mentioned the role they had here two months ago.
http://www.torrentbytes.net/forum_view … 62#1507162

lol. You said that we messed up 2 months ago and then questioned my claim that it was a failure?

We've tried to solve these problems now the last 20 years or so, are we closer to any solution? No, and the solution doesn't appear to become any easier when we're letting more people in.

Last edited by Arnemes at 2013-02-02 08:12:06

#1519090 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:17:19 (5 months ago) - [Report]

I still think that third was a failure. But around 700 000 of these flats was not a failure. We need to take down 300 000 flats and at least build a million more.

But yes, most often what we refer the 300 000 flats was a failure. It was a design flaw inspired by eastern Europe and Andy Warhol.

#1519091 by Sargoth (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:21:46 (5 months ago) - [Report]

http://www.economist.com/news/special-r … us-ins-and

Might be worth a read.

#1519092 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:24:59 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

Which leads back to my original question. Who's going to pay for them?

#1519093 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:34:44 (5 months ago) - [Report]

As I said before we could do this instead of ROT-avdraget.

beblebox wrote:

It would not have costed much more than what we are paying house owners to repair their houses. It would have employed the same people and we would have bin able to boost the Swedish iron, carpenter and forest industry. The Swedish style, spend when times are bad and save when they are good.

It is money within the nation so it does get used over and over. We could also have skipped McDonalds tax cut that we gave them. It is not like they are going to have more staff active. We made 10 billions a year in tax money from selling booze to the world that we sold for 50 billions, five years of profit.

It has now gone five years in March.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-02 08:46:51

#1519095 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:46:00 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

As I said before we could do this instead of ROT-avdraget.

beblebox wrote:

It is money within the nation so it does get used over and over.

Those numbers won't add up at all. And the money won't stay within the nation anyway.

#1519096 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 08:50:15 (5 months ago) - [Report]

It wont if we do not stop the draining of our economy. Bilprovningen gave lots of money to. Now they are sitting in a tax-paradise in Greece. We need to reinstate the mixed economy and we need to find a alternative to the FIAT money system.

#1519099 by Arnemes (Power User) at 2013-02-02 10:14:00 (5 months ago) - [Report]

The part about booze is BS. V&S had a net income of 1.47BSEK in 2007 and was sold for 55, we'll "earn" much more from paying of loans. We've got enough state owned companies and too many of them are terrible at what they do.

What we don't need is more religion. Took us 800 years to get rid of the fundamental Christians and I would rather not see something else replace it.

EDIT:

Quote:

The idea of lean Nordic government will come as a shock both to French leftists who dream of socialist Scandinavia and to American conservatives who fear that Barack Obama is bent on �Swedenisation�. They are out of date. In the 1970s and 1980s the Nordics were indeed tax-and-spend countries. Sweden�s public spending reached 67% of GDP in 1993. Astrid Lindgren, the inventor of Pippi Longstocking, was forced to pay more than 100% of her income in taxes. But tax-and-spend did not work: Sweden fell from being the fourth-richest country in the world in 1970 to the 14th in 1993.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 … supermodel

Last edited by Arnemes at 2013-02-02 10:23:35

#1519125 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-02-02 15:19:17 (5 months ago) - [Report]

Arnemes wrote:

The part about booze is BS. V&S had a net income of 1.47BSEK in 2007 and was sold for 55, we'll "earn" much more from paying of loans.

Might have had some errors in my sources (aftonbladet) but still you missed how much tax they paid before. Something you did not mention in your un-existing source.

Read about Pernod Ricards playing with taxes here.

Taxes they do not pay at all any more

Loans created by a Hitman towards our economy that is a minister today.

There is no fundamental difference when you vote for SD or one of the other six liberal parties in the government. Except maybe a march during kristallnacht once a year and the right to call a darker person nigger.

SD is like Piratpartiet. They only have one question. The ironic thing is that what they represent IS a foreign culture. A imported culture that we as Swedes are suppose to be proud of our nation or sing our national anthem.

Swedes are suppose to be un-nationalistic. This is a part of what has made us what we are, constantly criticising our own system. This is something that has bin a part of our culture ever since the Russians stole Finland from us and we asked a masonic general from the French revolution to come and be our king in hope of that he would take it back. But he instead went ahead and lost Norway as well.

And here you come with your southern culture to my country. I mean; what's up with that?

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-02-02 15:21:11

#1519141 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-02-02 17:44:58 (5 months ago) - [Report]

beblebox wrote:

Also regarding this subject about the mosques there was a interesting program on SVT where they went back one year later and checked up how girls are being treated Link Swedish Public Service Not sure if you can see it in all Scandinavia but I think so.

It became clear that we need to show our support to the feminist movement within Islam in Sweden. Fazeela Selberg Zaib is one Muslim female feminist blogger that they pointed at as someone that tries to organise a more equal situation within the religion. I do think this is something that they need to do them self but there should be some kind of donation campaign to them.

It was a very weak program. Poorly researched. What you would expect from state funded tv really. I'm surprised you didn't get more out of it than that.. or maybe I'm not..

Why don't you ask yourself why imams and Muslims in general say one thing in front of the camera and another thing when they believe there is no camera? In Islam lying is institutionalized and permitted, which is why none of them have problems lying to infidels. You have to forget the concept of SIN, which is a Christian invention, and focus on the Islamic concepts of permitted/forbidden actions. In Islam a MAN, not a woman, can have 4 wives. In Islam it is permitted to beat your wife! And on and on we go.

There is no such thing as the "new interpretation" vs. the "conservative/literalist" interpretation within Islam. No such thing! That is a Christian distinction that the Swedish journalist is familiar with and which she brings to her program in the study of Islam in the documentary. Or worse she is either ignorant or lies about it. The evidence for this is clear at the end of the documentary when a Swedish church is shown and the term "conservative" is brought up. Thus poorly researched, because the comparison and presupposition that Islam can be compared to any religion - namely Christianity - is a category error. The same fallacy that atheists tend to make in assuming religions can be put in a big box called religion. None of those that are interviewed uses the distinction, because the official ones are much better. In reality there are two branches within Islam, which divided very early on in the history of Islam, and a number of schools of interpretation, none of which I would ever describe as "liberal", "moderate", etc.. Sunni and Shia are the major branches within Islam.

The Quran is easy to understand and remember (Quran 19:97; Quran 54:17 - http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/17/default.htm). Contrary to the Jewish (see midrash eg..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash#Methodology) and Christian scriptures (which are not uttered by God to a prophet, the Quran is such a book), the Quran is easy to understand and remember!

It does not require tafsir or alim - an interpreter or a sharia counselor, but cannot either be reproduced by any other than Allah (Quran 10:37-38 - http://quran.com/10/37-38). That's why in the program to deny the teachings of the Quran would be as to deny the word of Allah himself. It would be impossible and the only way out is to lie for a Muslim, which is permitted OR refute the teachings of the Quran as the word of Allah, which we haven't seen yet. No reformation within Islam.

The above is the true dilemma for the Muslims of today, yesterday and always have been so long as they have lived in a non-Muslim and secular society - and not the dilemma as portrayed by the "moderate" scholar later in the program.

Very funny to see how the ethnic Swedish "feminists" in the program act towards their Muslim sisters. Of course the feminists in Sweden are afraid that if they criticize the Muslim women for wearing hidjabs - which all the so-called "Muslim feminists" in the documentary did, HELLO!! - then they would ally themselves with SD and the political right. And they are all leftists ****s. So they simply let them be suppressed by the Muslim men, they let Muslim men beat Muslim women and they even say in the documentary that to do anything different would be racist. Fucking disgusted me, and it just shows how awful you have it in Sweden and how completely blind you are to the real problems of the world.

And I could go on and on.. you know :jack:

#1519152 by alupigus (Lumberjack) at 2013-02-02 18:50:23 (5 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

The Quran is easy to understand and remember (Quran 19:97; Quran 54:17 - http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/17/default.htm). Contrary to the Jewish (see midrash eg..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash#Methodology) and Christian scriptures (which are not uttered by God to a prophet, the Quran is such a book), the Quran is easy to understand and remember!

It does not require tafsir or alim - an interpreter or a sharia counselor, but cannot either be reproduced by any other than Allah (Quran 10:37-38 - http://quran.com/10/37-38). That's why in the program to deny the teachings of the Quran would be as to deny the word of Allah himself. It would be impossible and the only way out is to lie for a Muslim, which is permitted OR refute the teachings of the Quran as the word of Allah, which we haven't seen yet. No reformation within Islam.

I didn`t know that,but somehow I always got the feeling that will be no reformation within Islam. Useful info. THX.

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