Serious Chat > Multiculturalism has failed in Europe

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#1516715 by DXC Donor

(The King) at 2013-01-18 10:58:54 (6 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Judging by the actions of current european leaders, I don't really know their stand.

They don't take a stand for whatever country, just for themselves. To climb up on the political ladder to get more money in their own pockets and when it all goes wrong, they retire and live happily ever after and leave the mess for others to clean up.

sniperfin wrote:

Obama is currently doing the hitler job you descibed. He has killed tons of extreme leader figures with drone attacks (and ofcourse the main man with seals), he has even killed muslim US citizens that way.

Which was inevitable in my opinion. If you push someone into a corner and threaten him all over, they will take drastic action against you. Or when you're a chicken country like NL, you put up with it and let it all happen.

Last edited by DXC at 2013-01-18 11:01:24

#1516716 by tidus (Power User) at 2013-01-18 11:05:43 (6 months ago) - [Report]

DXC wrote:

tidus wrote:

Just what would Hitler do? You can't really be saying Hitler did good by exterminating Jews and others. Do you really wish for the extermination of Muslims? What exactly are you saying? Wishing for a Hitler is an unbelievably disgusting thing and grossly offensive.

Hitler did wrong by blaming the Jews and trying to exterminate them. I'm not talking about regular muslims, but the extreme radical ones. Those that also could be described as completely brainwashed who do the killing for their so called good reasons.

You should see what all this multicultralism bullshit is causing, for example here in NL, it causes nothing but trouble. Like I said: I'm not a rasist, but the people who come here should integrate and respect our way of doing things and adapt to it. If they can't or simply don't want, they either have two choices: put up with it and shut up or leave the country and go somewhere else. Especially muslims are causing trouble here in NL. The first thing they say when they can't get something done: we're racists, we don't respect them.

They come here, abuse the system, cause trouble, and nothing is being done against them. The police fears them, the government fears them and in the end the law itself fears them. Go up against them and 20 of them show up on your doorstep the next day, they don't care about using violence, it's for the greater good they say, to teach us some respect for their culture and religion.

If you are a muslim and you integrate, the others who don't will become angry at you, how fucking fucked up is that. They ruin it for the good ones this way. Dutch people don't even want to live in those neighborhoods anymore where they live now, they're being terrorized by 13 year old kids. The system fails, the law fails, it threatens our entire culture and believes and we simply allow it... Or better said: the government does, the people are done with it. A clean sweep of those radicals wouldn't hurt the country, it would solve a lot of problems, even for the good muslims. I wouldn't mind if Hitler would rise up for a month and sweep those radicals out of Europe entirely and then go back to being dead.

Nice way to try to promote a man and a people under his regime that were trying to wipe out every 'impure' race out of Germany and Poland and elsewhere that they took over. If Hitler had not been stopped and his widespread hatred had continued, anyone not of 'Aryan' descent purely would have been enslaved and killed to allow the dominant superior race (cough) to take over. You would own no land of your own if you did somehow get born and well, if you don't believe Auschwitz and many other spots were real, or the mass graves around several countries were real... I've got news for you. His hatred was not just at Jews but also at homosexuals as well and yeah, he might have taken care of the Muslims but you'd be on the list too. Not trying to be mean here so I apologize if it comes off too harsh but yeah... what you said just raised an eyebrow.

#1516718 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-01-18 11:21:40 (6 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

His hatred was not just at Jews but also at homosexuals as well

+ Gypsies,jehowas witnesses,free masons,communists,slavs and those who just oppesed his politics in any manner.
And it was not only hitler, those who worked under him were usually much more radical than him (himmler,heydrich for example),when it comes to master race idea.

himmler wrote:

Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2013-01-18 11:23:14

#1516728 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-18 13:51:01 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

I also see religion as something that is going to disappear with the enlightenment that is coming from science.

If that was true then religion would have disappeared a long time ago (in the West), since science has been an occupation of man for thousands of years. And we are not in the Enlightenment any longer, meaning science and religion in the West have different roles now than they did back in the days of Darwin, when it was controversial to go against "Intelligent Design". The Enlightenment is over and did not cause religion in the West to die out. Also, often only uncompromising scientists would claim that science should view -religion- as something that ought to disappear, because science is.. somehow.. the opposite of religion. And you do state you are against a them-vs-us...

But this is in regards to multiculturalism. New religions have gradually come from the south and the east to Western shores. But as we have seen Islamic radicals, and their silent moderates, don't care about freedom of speech, so why should they care about what western scientists have to say about their religion?

Quote:

In almost every church you go to in Sweden they wont even fill the first five rows and I would guess its the same in all of Europe.

It isn't. That kind of church culture you are describing is particular for the Scandinavian countries. You go further south, to the more catholic countries, like Czech Rep or Italy, church attendance will be higher. Also the Scandinavian national churches, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian all have a high member % and have kept it, without it dropping significantly since they were founded. Scandinavians, if they do go to church, go to church on Christmas Eve, baptisms, weddings, etc. the % is between 40-70 (discounting Christmas mass, but the churches are nearly full in my experience).

Back to multiculturalism.

Quote:

Muslims are building mosques, sure. But it is not even 1% of the amount of churches that exists and they will soon be empty as well.

It goes without saying that there aren't as many mosques as there are churches. This because Christianity has been part of Europe for ~1700 years, starting with Greece, Byzantium-Turkey and Italy.
But where do they get the money from? Some mosques are build by money from very conservative states like Qatar and Iran. Meaning they will have a radical base and a radical theology. The Muslim Patrols from the videos guard mosques and shun "non-Muslim behavior". No alcohol, gambling, lewd behavior, etc. as per Sharia law.

Here is a list of OFFICIAL mosques in a number of countries, France, England, Scotland. The list also contains the East London Mosque, which presumably is the one that the Muslim Patrol is protecting in the video and must be considered radical. It has also been connected with the Muslim Brotherhood:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosques_in_France

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo … ed_Kingdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Londo … _relations

#1516797 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-19 00:09:44 (6 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

I have not seen a single mass demonstration where "moderate" muslims in sweden are rallying against the antisemitism their radical brothers are practising.
I have not seen a single mass demonstration where "moderate" muslims is england are rallying against those who openly provide hate speeches and are doing things like hOG posted.

Since the link hOG provided didnt have the film anymore I will post this link to the daily mail.

Also a quote:
"Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim organisation which campaigns for a peaceful co-existence among communities, has condemned the group's behaviour.

He said: 'We live in the UK and we are governed by UK law, there should be no mob rule. If people are involved in this behaviour then it is worrying but it is an isolated incident.'"

sniperfin wrote:

And I don't want that, muslims should have the same rights as everybody else, no less, no more, the same, but currently that is not enough for them.

Multiculturalism is fine, it's great in many cases. But it requires two things. The cultures which are mixing must have similar understanding of the grounding rules (freedoms,liberties,values etec.), then the mixing goes well, there are no conflicts which concern the groundstone stuff, the mixing happens in everyday level (customs,food,clothing,language,traditions etc.), and thats nice, it richens the society.

This I can stand behind. If we would be talking about Sweden where I live I would like to tear all these big areas with flats down and mix the population up. I would want the government to build around one million new flats around the bigger cities and design them in a way where integration is a major focus. I don�t believe in what the Swedish right calls market rent where the rent is trippled but I can see that no one cares about this because of the "big issue with muslims".

I also want to ban all religion from school. It has very long bin secluded but now when we have started to allow private schools there is also Islamic and Christian schools popping up. This is highly dangerous.

And if it was that we would have a political organisation in Sweden over the 4% limit that would want these kind of laws I would also be worried and criticising their ideas. But right now this is a non issue because they don't exist. We do have a political party trying to stop abortions and force religion on the people but they are probably gonna disappear from the map during the next election if it isnt for sympathy votes from the other conservatives but they are gonna try to rescue the other one falling out that has all the cash.

hOG wrote:

Also the Scandinavian national churches, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian all have a high member % and have kept it

I am a member of the Swedish church and pay the extra tax for it even if I do define myself as an atheist. I don't mind the religion. People still need hope and if I ever would decide to marry I would probably use it. The Swedish church is helping people and especially now when the government is kicking hard on the people not able to provide food them self.

I do admire the Lutheran Christianity and think it was good that the guy invented it "talking" to god when the got struck by lightning back in the 1500s.

If the only evidence you can provide that Sharia laws are coming is a kid running around and confiscating alcohol from a few people on a Saturday night and posting it on youtube I am not very worried about this. I believe in the freedom of religion in the Human rights laws in UN but I value the freedom of speech higher.

I also think this kid is trolling the nationalists because they are such an easy target.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-01-19 02:56:13

#1516819 by sixshooter (User) at 2013-01-19 10:50:17 (6 months ago) - [Report]

Democracy fails to supply equity for citizens.
Therefore, people's values are not even.

The failure comes from the fact that some people learn the democracy laws before learning the moral values.
And when an individual tries to adapt moral values to the laws, nothing good results.

That's why religions are good in general, even if the people aren't true believers: religions teaches the moral values and gives the freedom to chose which laws society needs.

As in the law books, 'legal' doesn't mean 'right', so democracy doesn't mean a fair world.

#1516844 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-19 13:42:24 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

If the only evidence you can provide that Sharia laws are coming is a kid running around and confiscating alcohol from a few people on a Saturday night and posting it on youtube I am not very worried about this. I believe in the freedom of religion in the Human rights laws in UN but I value the freedom of speech higher.

It wasn't evidence per se that Sharia laws are coming to England, but more that (as in line with the topic of the thread) that multiculturalism has failed in Europe. However the last picture I linked to in that post is two years old, iirc, and from a DK paper, but taken in the UK. It is one of Anjem Choudary's people putting up a 'Sharia law poster'. Anjem Choudary was behind Islam4UK website, that was closed by the UK authorities in 2010, he praised 7/7, and has shown support over and over again for Islamic terrorists and radicals. A real scumbag and someone that Islamic radicals in the UK look up to.

This thing with Sharia law is older than the videos I posted and so is Islamic radicalism in the UK and in your country and mine.

It amazes me that you are not worried about the threat that multiculturalism poses, but considering you are also from Sweden (see other thread, no offense intended) I think I understand why. There simply isn't much of a critical base so far as mass immigration is concerned in your country. Wouldn't you say that this is something to be worried about?

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2 … e=20051214 (immigrants are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics)

You also should read more about the religion of Islam, especially the deeds of Muhammad and you will understand that if he is to be a role-model, then he is a peculiar and offensive one, especially to Westerners. E.g. a conqueror and jihadist that married a 6-year old, slept with her when she was 9 years old - something which has formed the basis for child marriages in contemporary Saudi Arabia. The practical consequences are the most important(!), all of which are formed from Islamic jurisprudence. Point is not to say that all Muslims behave as or are, or follow Muhammad, even though that is what the Quran teaches, but that the highest and most esteemed role-model in Islam is contradicting Western culture, values and laws.

Sahih Bukhari (most popular and trustworthy ahadith):

"Narrated by 'Aisha

That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
[Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 - http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_7_62.php]

In the Quran there is no limit to when a man may be engaged to a woman and when there may be a divorce. Sura 65:1-5 talks about divorce from women of all ages.

"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease."
[Quran 65:4]

Quote:

I also think this kid is trolling the nationalists because they are such an easy target.

Maybe, but until that is clear, there is nothing wrong or nationalistic about being upset about this - especially if you value freedom of speech and your human rights..

#1516846 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-01-19 14:01:18 (6 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

You clearly have missed the fact that religions in west (christianity and it's branches) have modified the values (moral values aswell) they used to have to follow the moral values of democratic secular societies.

And you cliam that democracy fails to supply equality is just plain wrong.
It's the countries which are based on democracy which are the most equal and free,on contrary the countries based on theocracy are the most unequal and unfree, proving your claim about religions as equality providers wrong.

Also laws in democratic countries are in many cases based on moral values.
You get in jail (or death penalty) if you kill another person, clearly when you learn this law you also learn that it's wrong to kill somebody, if you do that, you get punished.
Or if you steal something, you get punished aswell, you understand that taking something which is not your is wrong.
And so on.

You are right on one thing, religions teach moral values, but to follow your example, moral values from religious source does not mean it's right, so moral values from from religion does not mean a good world.

#1516862 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-19 15:01:38 (6 months ago) - [Report]

sixshooter wrote:

I think law is going to in the long run represent what is right and wrong according to the majority of the people. In example we can see how cannabis is becoming legal in more and more states. Alcohol has bin legal for very long even though it is a poison.

I think in a higher level of this society we are going to reach out to the theories of philosophers like Nietzsche And his theory about how to become a �bermensch amongst others.

Linked to these theories we need to be aware of the theories in Soviet about the new man and what really happened with this attempt to form the new human.

hOG wrote:

It amazes me that you are not worried about the threat that multiculturalism poses, but considering you are also from Sweden (see other thread, no offense intended) I think I understand why. There simply isn't much of a critical base so far as mass immigration is concerned in your country. Wouldn't you say that this is something to be worried about?

I am much more worried about the Shock therapy taking place all over Europe. Thatcher, Pinochet and Friedmans love child. But I think that the gain of temporary refugees in Sweden is a part of this thing that is going on. They are just here temporarily to paint up a threat so that we don�t see all the current governments raping and pillaging in co-operation with the banks. I have already posted my theories about how the slight over-representation of first generation immigrants is linked to class and not some kind of religion.

Morality is dropping in my country but it is not linked to religion but to the greater lack of money. The people need to find another way to maintain the level of living we have gotten used to.

hOG wrote:

You also should read more about the religion of Islam, especially the deeds of Muhammad and you will understand that if he is to be a role-model, then he is a peculiar and offensive one, especially to Westerners. E.g. a conqueror and jihadist that married a 6-year old, slept with her when she was 9 years old - something which has formed the basis for child marriages in contemporary Saudi Arabia.

I do not think he is a role model and I am well aware about this case of paedophilia. But as a part of our new society people should be allowed to believe what they want and to be able to discuss it. I also think that the only thing the Muslims coming here keeps is the love for the family. Some times it is to much with the honourable killings but in many cases it might just be to keep the father proud. Like a friend of mine a very beautiful girl reaching 30. She hasn�t found a man to marry yet which is a severe case of haram. They will not murder her, don�t worry about that. They will just nag on her all the time that she needs to find her self a husband to take care of her. I think in the next generation even the most extreme situations will be something similar to Italian boys and their "mama".

If a political organisation would grow for these laws I would join up with the nationalists and all the other political parties saying that religion needs to be secluded from the government, law and school. I could quote a lot of weird sections from the old testament with crazy laws "god" gave us. But I do not think this represent most Christians as well as I think most people believing in "Allah" also wants a free society. I don�t think this will ever happen and the real things I am worrying about is happening every day.

Jesus is also one of the Islamic prophets, remember that.

We need to speed up the integration. But we don�t need to stop the small immigration we actually have.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-01-19 15:12:14

#1516864 by sixshooter (User) at 2013-01-19 15:16:12 (6 months ago) - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

...
And you cliam that democracy fails to supply equality is just plain wrong.
It's the countries which are based on democracy which are the most equal and free,on contrary the countries based on theocracy are the most unequal and unfree, proving your claim about religions as equality providers wrong.
...

I don't believe that theocracy is a good option, on contrary, is worse than democracy. So far, democracy might be the best form of government today.

But democracy it simply fails to supply equality because of the voting system:
a 10x10 meters cube of cotton doesn't weight more than 1x1 meter cube of gold.
What I want to say is that although a law may be voted by 60% of citizens, sometimes this law doesn't value too much for this 60%. On the other hand, the rest of 40% could starve because of this law.
If those 60% would have a good moral value, would not accept a small benefit for their own, allowing the other 40% to suffer a lot more.

In democracy the laws are applied based on votes count, rather than law weight.

While a law could bring an additional $10 to the income of 60% of the population, the rest of the population may lose $100 because of the law.
(in the end the whole country loses)

Last edited by sixshooter at 2013-01-19 15:17:39

#1516865 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-19 15:52:00 (6 months ago) - [Report]

sixshooter wrote:

What I want to say is that although a law may be voted by 60% of citizens, sometimes this law doesn't value too much for this 60%. On the other hand, the rest of 40% could starve because of this law.
If those 60% would have a good moral value, would not accept a small benefit for their own, allowing the other 40% to suffer a lot more.

In democracy the laws are applied based on votes count, rather than law weight.

Copyright laws is not supported by the majority of the people. But in a representative democracy as the one we are living in money talks higher than the opinion of the people. You can with money fool the government with intense lobbying to buy lets say as in Sweden 60 new Jas gripen even though it probably wasn�t supported by the public. Most people are also idiots getting fooled by the established media (avpixlat in sweden is now a part of the established media).

In italy we have the most obvious case of this with Silvio Berlusconi being able to do what ever he wants to just because he owns most of the news stations.

When Plato thought about these matters he wanted the representatives to at least study philosophy for 60 years before ruling the public (at least according to my philosophy teacher and I don�t have the energy to check it up). Something that disappeared some time after Marx reinvented the democracy and gave us the last 100 years of different politics.

#1516890 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-19 17:08:20 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

I think that the gain of temporary refugees in Sweden is a part of this thing that is going on. They are just here temporarily to paint up a threat so that we don�t see all the current governments raping and pillaging in co-operation with the banks. I have already posted my theories about how the slight over-representation of first generation immigrants is linked to class and not some kind of religion.

We are talking about multiculturalism, i.e. the compatibility or non compatibility between multiple cultures. To say that for example criminal statistics (your own country's national statistics) is a cover up and that the concern of other people essentially about multiculturalism is bought propaganda. You are the one switching to conspiracy theories. I just don't buy it especially not when Sweden is one of the most immigrant friendly countries in Europe.

But examples of why multiculturalism is a failure doesn't have to involve the state however. You couldn't explain the Muhammad cartoon crisis in the same way. Like that was a cover up for something else. The anger aimed at France or Denmark or any other countries for satirizing or drawing Muhammad are related to religion and the concept of religious blasphemy. Take another recent example of the failure of multiculturalism. A satire show here featuring 4 young, beautiful Muslim women making fun of the prejudice of immigrants and Danes. Great, but I guess people should have expected the daily death threats aimed at these "kufr girls" for mocking Islam. They received death threats, hanging and stoning, on the street one of the girls were recognized and threatened with beatings. All from immigrants. Even a 10 min youtube response was made first in Arabic condemning the show and with reference to ahadith:

"If you ask them (about this), they declare: 'We were only talking idly and joking.' Say: 'Was it at Allaah and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?'

66. Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were Mujrimoon (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, criminals)"

Example from the show (a sketch about dating "ethnic" girls, anyone can get it I think and pretty harmless.... punchline being that she is on a date with a white guy, and her many brothers are watching her, guarding her, the guy says at the end he gets that she has a tight family relationship):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifPoj5VroYU

Is it still about banking then when this gets you death threats from non-western immigrants? You "whores" were paid money to lick the ass of the Danes, some immigrant wrote.. multicultural debate..

Quote:

Morality is dropping in my country but it is not linked to religion but to the greater lack of money. The people need to find another way to maintain the level of living we have gotten used to.

You have an enormous welfare system in place. You rank as the third happiest nation in the world according to Forbes Magazine.

Quote:

But as a part of our new society people should be allowed to believe what they want and to be able to discuss it.

Well, people shouldn't be allowed to believe and practice whatever they want and if by "new society" you mean the majority culture should bend to minority cultures (e.g. only halal meat in kindergartens, shops etc.), i.e. positive discrimination, then no. People can discuss the most radical, insane bullshit, but even within the constitutional law there are limits:

"Citizens have the right to join in the worship of God in any way that is consistent with their beliefs, however, as long that nothing is taught or practiced contrary to proper conduct or public order."
�67, Constitution

I'm sure you have a similar � in Sweden.

Quote:

I also think that the only thing the Muslims coming here keeps is the love for the family.

That is obviously not true.

Quote:

If a political organisation would grow for these laws I would join up with the nationalists and all the other political parties saying that religion needs to be secluded from the government, law and school.

The national-conservatives would never agree to that, because 1) religion and state are already appropriately separated and 2) it is the goal of the left, not the right, to eradicate tradition and national culture, so that the multicultural project can become a success.

Quote:

I could quote a lot of weird sections from the old testament with crazy laws "god" gave us.

Is Sweden experiencing mass immigration from Christians that are trying to implement Old Testament laws in Swedish society now? If not, how would that in any way then be relevant?? I don't think you understand why I quoted from the ahadith and Quran and why it is a problem. It is a problem, because of the practical consequences these verses and beliefs have. Non-Western immigrants, not all, do follow in the footsteps of Muhammad (as commanded by the Quran and ahadith).

Quote:

Jesus is ~~also~~ one of the Islamic prophets, remember that.

But Jesus is not a prophet in Christianity. In Muslim theology the Bible is not regarded as being a source of inspiration either. It is corrupted, hence the need for the perfect book - the Quran.

Quote:

We need to speed up the integration. But we don�t need to stop the small immigration we actually have.

I disagree. We need to stop or nearly halt non-Western immigration, to take care of the non-Western immigrants that are here, and which have been coming to Europe for the last ~30-50 years in great numbers.

#1516905 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2013-01-19 18:30:02 (6 months ago) - [Report]

Quote:

I agree.

Quote:

What I want to say is that although a law may be voted by 60% of citizens, sometimes this law doesn't value too much for this 60%. On the other hand, the rest of 40% could starve because of this law.

There are always going to be people who are not happy, no matter what is decided.
Also there are laws in democracies which prevents the majority to instate laws etc. which suppress minorities or those who have different views.
And your starving example is extreme, I have not seen such laws set in place in recent history.

Quote:

In democracy the laws are applied based on votes count, rather than law weight.

Not true. There are many limitations on what kind of laws can be set, many.

Quote:

While a law could bring an additional $10 to the income of 60% of the population, the rest of the population may lose $100 because of the law.

There are no such laws. There are tax policies which vary, but they are not laws and they are changed all the time (depending who is on power).
I agree that taxing is partly a value question too (for example should the rich be taxed more or should everybody be taxed equally etc.), but those are not grounding questions where groundstone values are in question.

#1516950 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-19 23:07:24 (6 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

Yes and I am saying in media the multiculturalism is painted up as a big problem when it isn�t. As the numbers I provided in the other thread states we are keeping less than 1000 refugees a year. Less than 400 kids coming alone get a right to stay. Relatives to refugees are also around an average of 1000-3000 a year. The rest of the immigrants are from with in europe or people (mainly girls) marrying Swedish citizens.

I say that the multicultural threat is a conspiracy theory.

What you call my conspiracy is proven with real numbers but I don�t want to go too deep in to it since it would be considered of topic. In Stockholm the government sold kindergartens and homes for elderly for around 3 million SEK. They have now returned a profit to the private market of about 65 million SEK in three years for that company. (sorry for link in Swedish here, google translate didn�t want to translate this)

My point is that we don�t see it. All we see is how bad it was that someone leaked the member-register of the nationalists youth organisation and nationalist politicians in parliament saying that they should send out the "footsoldiers" to revenge this. Or people in the comment section of Fria Tider saying that Ali Esbati didn�t learn anything in Ut�ya where the terrorist Breivik tried to kill him amongst others. You could say that this lone commentator doesn�t represent the Nationalist movement BUT we have to remember that one out of five in the youth organisation of SD has links to the white power movement.

The nationalist terrorists post a real threat. The "muslim" immigrants just want a job and have a bit of fun.

hOG wrote:

You couldn't explain the Muhammad cartoon crisis in the same way. Like that was a cover up for something else. The anger aimed at France or Denmark or any other countries for satirizing or drawing Muhammad are related to religion and the concept of religious blasphemy.

In around 2001 South Park posted a whole episode with Mohammad. No one cared. Now all the sudden everyone care and it is an effect of the us and them argument. After 9/11 when a terrorist organisation with about 100 members attacked WTC all the sudden all Muslims where considered terrorists. They have bin hunted and chased and the support for al Qa�ida is bigger than ever. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

hOG wrote:

You have an enormous welfare system in place. You rank as the third happiest nation in the world according to Forbes Magazine.

It has bin removed. I have proven this in the numbers posted in the two other threads. The removal of the welfare system is why I am angry that all I hear every day is about ethnicity when my country has bin raped by the banks.

hOG wrote:

The only party that wants the church back in school in Sweden is about to fall out.

hOG wrote:

My point was that the Muslims coming here are not asking for this and there is no political party supporting this. There is however a party in the government whom refers to thier more extreme supporter as footsoldiers.

hOG wrote:

The people I have met that has come here has made me a better person. Often they are more open minded and they make my life much happier. Doesn�t matter if they are Brazilians, Yugoslavian, Chileans or Iranians. The people running away from oppression don�t want it here.

Even The Red Cross thinks it will be heavy riots because of the things the banks are doing within 4 years. A European spring.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-01-19 23:38:04

#1516969 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-20 01:21:13 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

The "Swedish situation" has been addressed in the Swedish thread. This thread invites you, me and everyone else to think a little bit broader as it is in regards to Europe. But just to comment on Sweden.

There are plenty of evidence to suggest that Western cultures are having difficulties integrating non-Westeners and that just opening the flood gates is only worsening the integration already taking place - and thus making the project of multiculturalism harder, impossible etc.. E.g. I listed criminal statistics, which you only managed to refute with a made up theory - aka STRAWMAN argumentation.

Now you are talking about refugees. Asylum seekers, who are not always 1) non-Western, and 2) not immigrants, and 3) immigrants have been coming to Scandinavia in massive numbers since the 80s. 4) The UNHCR sets the limits and basic refugee politics for Western countries, not Sweden, UK or any other country does that itself. 5) The countries do however set their own immigration policies.

Quote:

I say that the multicultural threat is a conspiracy theory.

haha.. this whole thread is full of people that think otherwise and it contain plenty of references to studies, statistics, videos and so on, which document otherwise.

Quote:

What you call my conspiracy is proven with real numbers but I don�t want to go too deep in to it since it would be considered of topic.

I'm sure that the "Shock Doctrine" is build on numbers and documentation within reason, but I am not calling that a conspiracy theory. What I am calling a conspiracy theory is that you are saying that refugees and immigrants are just:

"... temporarily [here] to paint up a threat so that we don�t see all the current governments raping and pillaging in co-operation with the banks."

In other words, it is a secret ploy by the government and the banking world to get people riled up about immigration, so they can rape and pillage us of our money.

That is "99% bullshit".

Quote:

You could say that this lone commentator doesn�t represent the Nationalist movement BUT we have to remember that one out of five in the youth organisation of SD has links to the white power movement.

Even if this was true, it is a straw man or at best irrelevant to the problem of immigration, which are there regardless of whether SD existed or white power movements existed or not.

Quote:

The "muslim" immigrants just want a job and have a bit of fun.

In Denmark we had to change the marriage laws to prevent forced marriages. Muslim girls were forced into marriage in great numbers, often to family members, like their cousins, who of course did not live in this country, but was unknown to them, and came to this country from Pakistan, Somalia, Turkey, etc.. In that way, through marriage, more of their family could come here and get benefits. That was changed fundamentally with the introduction of the 24-year law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_year_rule

A somewhat successful law that stopped forced marriages, made a large number of Muslim girls choose the path of higher education, but still was unable to stop the attempts to get around it, and still, sadly, in order not to discriminate.. goes for every immigrant coming to our country.. western or non-western.

I could go on and on with examples of laws that have been implemented here and abroad in attempts to accommodate non-Western immigrants, or what you call "new society".

The people that believe in multiculturalism vehemently deny that there is a threat to their project and have been for decades calling those people, who argue that there is a problem, for racists. So there is nothing new about what you are saying. But the problems are getting to big for people to just ignore any longer..

Quote:

Again, you couldn't explain the Muhammad cartoon crisis, the one in Denmark and the one in France, to name two examples that are current (there are pre-9/11 ones too!) using that conspiracy theory you got, because the state is not part of the equation.

All right it might be an effect of a "them vs. us", but that is an acknowledgement of the problem, nothing more - and even if true, just one more explanation why the multicultural project is doomed to fail.

And lets not forget WTC was attacked in the early 90s as well (by Muslim terrorists).

Quote:

Okay, now I'm curious. Have your welfare system been removed?? Or just reformed. I'm guessing its the later due to the economic crisis.

You still get paid by the government to study, you still have free medical treatment, you can still get support from the government if you are poor, and you can still get help with your apartment if you are an immigrant in Sweden. So they made a few cuts.. or what..

Lets say the entire welfare system of Sweden was removed and it was like in the USA. Is that an excuse for the over-representation of non-Western immigrants in Swedish jailsystem?

Of course it isn't.

Quote:

The only party that wants the church back in school in Sweden is about to fall out.

Fair enough. I was speaking generally. No true conservative party, no matter what country, ought to back the elimination of national tradition and history in the name of multiculturalism or some misunderstood tolerance.

Quote:

There are plenty of Muslims supporting sharia who come to Europe (immigrants). As we have seen since the 90s. Plenty of Muslims who come to Europe who support female circumcision and the Niqab. Take France for example who have had that discussion. Plenty of non-Western immigrants figuring in crime statistics in my country, yours and other countries as well. I'm sorry, but your idea about the non-Western Muslims who come here, just happy with good intentions only, doesn't measure up to reality at all, because it can be disproven with numbers, references to news articles, videos, statistics, etc.

Then the point of mentioning the Quran and ahadith verses and then pointing to the practical consequences are relevant. Because why do niqab exist? Why do circumcision? Why do slavery still exist in Islam?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c6_1357160016 (Dubai Slavery)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a94_1245344892 (Sudaneese/African slavery)

Search the Quran, the ahadiths and you will find your answer.

http://www.searchtruth.com/ (The Quran)

http://www.sahih-bukhari.com (Bukhari, ahadith)

And I think you know I could find you worse videos than that... I also realize the videos are not "European", but these are countries that people move from and to Europe.

Quote:

Great! I have met Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, people of nearly all faiths and non-faiths as well as a lot of people from different countries. Most have been good experiences, but that doesn't imply that there isn't a problem with immigration from non-Western countries.

Last edited by hOG at 2013-01-20 01:23:56

#1517076 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-20 19:06:19 (6 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

I'll try to keep it on topic even if this whole argument is a bit of topic.

Yeah you could say that it has bin reformed. The current government divided the union and the unemployment insurance. Before you paid around �10 to get membership in the union and after being member for one year they guaranteed 80% of your salary for one year if you got unemployed. This was paid by an extra tax for the employer per working hour. They have now divided the union and the insurance and made it completely member founded. This means that you can pay up to in some extreme cases �80 a month but most often around �40. This has led to that both the union and the unemployment insurance has bin bashed up as posted before with statistics.

as a reminder I am gonna repost some previous statistics:

How many of all unemployed that gets insurance:

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

Here is how many that doesnt get insurance in different regions of Stockholm:

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

One could ask what this has to do with immigration and temporary immigration in Sweden. Don�t worry I will tell you =). Instead of the insurance that existed before it is now up to the municipals to pay dole. It is not only a much smaller amount than before so the consumer power has shrunk but also an extra cost for the municipals that they can not apply for. The municipals don�t get more of the tax money but the take all the blame.

The government does however pay you for every place you provide for a refugee when you have him for two years before sending him back. So if the municipal opens up a refugee camp they can still pay for the schools and hospitals. They can also pay for these unemployed Swedes. This is why you see a lot of people with darker skin in all the villages. Since we don�t keep them for that long and are replacing them with new ones it does seem like they never learn the new language.

Here you have some nationalist source showing how much the dole is costing in one municipal in Sweden. Divided by if they are Swedish born or not. There is many others if you request them but most of the look similar.

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

In Sweden we don�t have minimum wage. Instead the union is negotiating the salaries. More and more of the companies leaves the union agreements because of this.

Here is some statistics on how its bin recently:
1995 90 procent
2005 89 procent
2007 87 procent
2008 86 procent
2009 85 procent
Source TCO

However in the last few months this has really started to increase. Even bigger companies like SAS airlines and Telia and many others are leaving the union agreements at a staggering rate.

So we will see a high decrease in salaries within the next few years. Maybe even having as low salaries as in the uk. around 60-70SEK/h compared to now when I would say the lowest income is between 105-140 SEK/h.

Also we have bin bashing on the sick. The system worked fine before. Even if the amount of the population needed to work to complete something had decreased we still had the same amount of income from different areas. In 2003 we where talking about people working being able to take a year of and keep the salary to give a unemployed a year of working instead. My political friends where talking about decreasing the working day to 6 hours instead to get more people working.

They managed to bash up this whole system with the cheating argument. That it was bad that people got money even if they didn�t work and removed this.

In the future we will need to work less and less until we reach singularity. I think within 20 years maybe only 20% of the current working force is needed and we all need to take a piece of that cake not just the biggest companies.

I see a dark future in Sweden with half the salaries and tripled rents. It is time that we fight the virus instead of the fever. The raping of this nation is proven with the numbers above but it is just the tip of the iceberg.

The differences between the lowest income and the highest is growing more in Sweden than in any other country yet the unemployment is also growing the most in all of Europe.

Yet the support for SD is growing when you loose your jobs instead of the support for the left. It probably was not planned to be like this but you can see the effect with these numbers.

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

And I am sorry reaching a bit of topic but the point is still here. The raise of the amount of temporary refugees is linked to that the municipals needs to find money somewhere. This is what the population sees in all the smaller villages where the support for nationalists are the biggest.

Last edited by beblebox at 2013-01-20 19:13:00

#1517088 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-20 20:18:06 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

I'll try to keep it on topic even if this whole argument is a bit of topic.

Yeah you could say that it has bin reformed.

Ok, case closed... it has not been removed, but just like here, and in other countries, there have been reforms. It's normal that depending on economical conjecture and other factors, that systems are reformed from time to time. You brought it up in this thread and argued it was removed completely (it wasn't) and that everyday you hear about ethnicity, when instead you ought to hear about the banks raping your country. That was your complaint. I disagree with that, or I don't think that topic is more important than immigration.

Quote:

The government does however pay you for every place you provide for a refugee when you have him for two years before sending him back. So if the municipal opens up a refugee camp they can still pay for the schools and hospitals. They can also pay for these unemployed Swedes. This is why you see a lot of people with darker skin in all the villages. Since we don�t keep them for that long and are replacing them with new ones it does seem like they never learn the new language.

You are still talking about refugees. They are different from immigrants, 1st. 2nd and 3rd.

Also, I do not in any way want to turn this into another "On Sweden" thread. But just so we are clear. The member founded union you refer to is normal in my country and have been for years + we pay more than you do. I pay around 120$ every month. It is not a big deal, imo.

Quote:

In Sweden we don�t have minimum wage. Instead the union is negotiating the salaries.

Same as in Norway and DK..

Quote:

ven bigger companies like SAS airlines

Hold your horses.. not strictly a Swedish airline..

Quote:

So we will see a high decrease in salaries within the next few years. Maybe even having as low salaries as in the uk. around 60-70SEK/h compared to now when I would say the lowest income is between 105-140 SEK/h.

This is also affected by East-European workers and workers from for example China which work for much lower cost and without unions to back them up. Light immigration (workers permits) pressure the Scandinavian salaries and with high taxes here it is harder to afford living costs if you are not getting paid much and the government takes close to 50%. It is a well-known problem and also related to immigration - not to mention the current crisis.

Quote:

Yet the support for SD is growing when you loose your jobs instead of the support for the left. It probably was not planned to be like this but you can see the effect with these numbers.

Because the "left" are in government or saying the same thing and SD isn't and is being left out particularly by the mainstream media. People want something else. Pretty logical.

I believe your main point was that you favored one political subject over another, though here in this thread, it is multiculturalism in Europe. Non-Western immigration is connected to financial status of a country, and can make countries poorer, because the education of third-world immigrants are lesser if not non-existent (illiteracy), they don't speak the language, not familiar with Western culture and values, and so western countries have to invest a huge amount of money on the education and what are not even working classes. All factors contributing to the crash of the multicultural project. A darker Europe if you will unless something is done.

#1517155 by beblebox (Power User) at 2013-01-21 00:22:45 (6 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

You are still talking about refugees. They are different from immigrants, 1st. 2nd and 3rd.

But this is what the nationalists or at least in my country are talking about. Refugees from Somalia. "Kids with beards" running away from Irak or what ever country another country is robbing at the moment because if immigrants claims to be kids they get a bigger chance of staying and getting an proper education however the numbers I have provided do not say that.

Of course you know better than using these arguments, There is a reason why I am discussing this matter here and no other places. But these arguments are out there so I did feel it is needed to get proven.

hOG wrote:

This is also affected by East-European workers and workers from for example China which work for much lower cost and without unions to back them up.

I want my country to leave the European Union. I don�t mind the migration between the nations but I want to stop the ability for a Swedish company Registered in Poland to hire someone with their low salaries and send them over and pay the lesser salary. I don't mind Polish carpenters here but I mind that they don�t get paid the same salary as a Swedish one and I think it should be illegal.

Or the fact that you can abuse a Latvian carpenter for 80sek/hour when a Swedish one at least will cost you 3-400sek/hour with tax. Global people, local companies. So to twist and turn it I don�t want the other economic cultures here, but I do not give a rats ass about what kind of ethnicity a person has.

There is even advertisements saying "vill du g�ra livet l�tt, hyr en lett!" (If you want to make your life easier, rent a Latvian).

I think that the European Union is bad for all Europe. There is no way for one economic solution can be good for Finland and Germany at the same time as it is good for Greece, Italy and Spain.

hOG wrote:

I believe your main point was that you favored one political subject over another, though here in this thread, it is multiculturalism in Europe.

Yes exactly. But I think I did add some things that was useful to this subject. I don�t want reach of topic but I still do think that the lesser standard of living often gets blamed on immigrants when it actually is us and our representatives that is making the mistakes.

#1517215 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-21 12:13:54 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@beblebox

Quote:

It doesn't matter all that much what the (unspecified) nationalists in your country are talking about. You are using the terms refugees and immigrants interchangeably. And that is wrong for the reasons I have listed previously. We can go over them again.

Asylum seekers/refuguees have the UNHCR to back them up. If you don't know what the UNHCR is it is the UN basically which:

"... lead and co-ordinate international action to protect refugees and resolve refugee problems worldwide. Its primary purpose is to safeguard the rights and well-being of refugees. It strives to ensure that everyone can exercise the right to seek asylum and find safe refuge in another state, with the option to return home voluntarily, integrate locally or to resettle in a third country." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat … s#Function)

It means that individual countries worldwide have agreed to accept refugees that fall under UN mandate. The countries do not setup their own asylum policies and it is not really possible to go against the UN mandate. Theoretically you could, but for how long without repercussions is anyone's guess. It also means that asylum seekers doesn't have to be non-Western. I was talking specifically about non-Western immigrants.

Immigrants are not refugees. Immigrants have come to Western countries in great numbers either voluntary, through workers permits, forced marriages, reunification programs or through other means - not through war or UN programs or asylum as that would classify them as asylum seekers, refugees. Immigration however is pretty natural, people move from country to country, across borders all the time and settle elsewhere. In Scandinavia one of the first settlers in the modern era were the polish workers in the 1920s. They came here as workers, picked potatoes in the fields, and later resettled.
But then we had non-Western immigration beginning in the 70s-80s, starting with the Turkish immigrants. So immigrants in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation presently.

It is these immigrants and their sons and daughters and grandsons and so on, I am referring to - and the on going immigration from non-Western countries I am referring to, as the 2nd, 3rd generation of non-Western immigrants, the integration of them, have utterly failed across Europe.

The 24 year law, as I have described earlier, was implemented to stop the practice of forced marriage for example. A different non-Western cultural phenomenon.

It is not that the asylum seekers are not relevant. They are, because a lot of crime are committed by asylum seekers. In small countries where there hardly are any crime you tend to notice when suddenly there are an explosion in crime - especially if done by foreigners.

In regards to integration the question should be what to do with non-Western immigrants to get them better integrated into western society? And what to do with refugees? I already said it would be for the best to stop or nearly halt immigration from non-Western countries and focus on the people that have moved here. As for refugees, not much can be done other than to go against the UN.

btw just so we are clear the Swedish Democrats (SD) acknowledge the differentiation between asylum-seekers and immigrants.

Quote:

I want my country to leave the European Union. I don�t mind the migration between the nations

You can't have it both ways.

Schengen was implemented by the EU. If you leave the EU, you leave Schengen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

It is also one of the reasons why for example east-European criminals go to Germany and the Scandinavian countries to rob copper from the graveyards, schools, public monuments, etc. also one of the reasons why you see so many east-european gypsy beggars on the streets.

Europe used to be about trade union. That was great, but this socialist bullshit and bureaucracy is ridiculous.

Quote:

I don't mind Polish carpenters here but I mind that they don�t get paid the same salary as a Swedish one and I think it should be illegal.

Ok, but how does that solve your problem? The Polish worker do not necessarily pay taxes in Sweden..

Quote:

There is even advertisements saying "vill du g�ra livet l�tt, hyr en lett!"

Would cause an outrage here..

#1517221 by unknown[81460] at 2013-01-21 12:47:10 (6 months ago) - [Report]

I heard on the news yesterday that illegal immigrants are paying to be transported out of the UK to elsewhere in Europe as they aren't happy here.

#1517244 by EspenT (Power User) at 2013-01-21 15:18:43 (6 months ago) - [Report]

hOG wrote:

You can't have it both ways.

Schengen was implemented by the EU. If you leave the EU, you leave Schengen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

I don't know the rules about leaving EU and staying in Schengen, but it's definitely possible to be a member of one without the other. Norway is.

Back on topic, I believe we should greatly reduce how many immigrants we take into our country, and build up a solid system for integration. The way it is now we cannot handle the non-western immigrants we have, and we certainly can't handle more. We do the immigrants no favor by letting them into our country in the current state. They are not properly integrated into society, and thus never fully become a part of the nation. We almost create different nations within the states, and this is really dangerous.

Once we have established a proper system for integration I believe that immigration may again proceed, as immigration and multiculturalism done the right way enriches society.

edit: typos

Last edited by EspenT at 2013-01-21 15:19:12

#1517259 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2013-01-21 16:48:17 (6 months ago) - [Report]

@EspenT

Quote:

I don't know the rules about leaving EU and staying in Schengen, but it's definitely possible to be a member of one without the other. Norway is.

I don't know the rules either, but I took beblebox on his word. For example DK is not part of the monetary union (we don't have EURO). So we are not like Germany a full member in that respect. If we leave the EU, i.e. leave 100%, I assumed that meant leaving everything that is related to the EU. Schengen is related to the EU and Norway is related to the EU in accepting its terms even if you are not a member of the EU. If DK left the EU it would mean we said goodbye to all the treaties, obligations etc. that we have signed in connection with the EU and that I assume include Schengen. That would mean, finally, reinstating our border control.

/edit: I'd rather have we stay in the EU provided it remain a trade union and not a wanna-be European federation.
And we agree on immigration 99%.

Last edited by hOG at 2013-01-21 16:50:00

#1517272 by unknown[494042] at 2013-01-21 17:38:05 (6 months ago) - [Report]

No sjit its just an invasion/infiltration

#1517282 by unknown[81460] at 2013-01-21 17:54:50 (6 months ago) - [Report]

Here's the news story I mentioned earlier about immigrants paying to leave the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … untry.html

#1517293 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2013-01-21 19:25:10 (6 months ago) - [Report]

stumbled on this video...

Somalis protest in Sweden for not getting free houses

man you guys are so screwed.

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