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Serious Chat > Unrest/Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1386576 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-03-18 05:52:27 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

What  am about to point out will not be PC nor popular opinion...but much of what I say has never been anyhow.

Gadaffi is not going to "regain power"...he never lost it.
No matter what the "international community" -thinks- in all the press in the world he is the ONLY leader of a country in that part of the world..or the whole world at large for that matter...that has any balls at all to put down an open armed revolt in a country that he is a leader of.

The UN can say whatever it wants (they say people in the USA must give up protected Rights to arms) and Gadaffi won't even bother to tell them to fuck-off-and-die any more than the People of the USA would if the UN sent in blue hats to take our arms from us....we would just shoot them all and get it over with.
Show up and attempt to impose your will in both cases will result in those attempting to do so dieing.

Gadaffi could be the Devil...but it is his country and so called "innocent  civilians" being killed are in fact armed forces bent on over takeing the government.
Every government on the planet would fight such a thing even if a few in the Arab world seem to have simply tucked tail and run lately.
Any country that attempts to impose it's will on this country brings on it's self and it's people what it asks for by doing so.

I myself do NOT want to see my country get involed in any other countries internal dispute,riots and or civil war.

Last edited by Timex at 2011-03-18 05:54:09

#1386585 by TheBigDon (Power User) at 2011-03-18 07:38:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Timex wrote:

What  am about to point out will not be PC nor popular opinion...but much of what I say has never been anyhow.

Gadaffi is not going to "regain power"...he never lost it.
No matter what the "international community" -thinks- in all the press in the world he is the ONLY leader of a country in that part of the world..or the whole world at large for that matter...that has any balls at all to put down an open armed revolt in a country that he is a leader of.

The UN can say whatever it wants (they say people in the USA must give up protected Rights to arms) and Gadaffi won't even bother to tell them to fuck-off-and-die any more than the People of the USA would if the UN sent in blue hats to take our arms from us....we would just shoot them all and get it over with.
Show up and attempt to impose your will in both cases will result in those attempting to do so dieing.

Gadaffi could be the Devil...but it is his country and so called "innocent  civilians" being killed are in fact armed forces bent on over takeing the government.
Every government on the planet would fight such a thing even if a few in the Arab world seem to have simply tucked tail and run lately.
Any country that attempts to impose it's will on this country brings on it's self and it's people what it asks for by doing so.

I myself do NOT want to see my country get involed in any other countries internal dispute,riots and or civil war.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.  I have to agree, I don't want my country getting involved in other countries disputes, but they undoubtably will unfortunately.  Then we'll have more deaths which weren't necessary.

#1386602 by unknown[190316] at 2011-03-18 09:15:15 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Timex wrote:

What  am about to point out will not be PC nor popular opinion...but much of what I say has never been anyhow.

Gadaffi is not going to "regain power"...he never lost it.
No matter what the "international community" -thinks- in all the press in the world he is the ONLY leader of a country in that part of the world..or the whole world at large for that matter...that has any balls at all to put down an open armed revolt in a country that he is a leader of.

The UN can say whatever it wants (they say people in the USA must give up protected Rights to arms) and Gadaffi won't even bother to tell them to fuck-off-and-die any more than the People of the USA would if the UN sent in blue hats to take our arms from us....we would just shoot them all and get it over with.
Show up and attempt to impose your will in both cases will result in those attempting to do so dieing.

Gadaffi could be the Devil...but it is his country and so called "innocent  civilians" being killed are in fact armed forces bent on over takeing the government.
Every government on the planet would fight such a thing even if a few in the Arab world seem to have simply tucked tail and run lately.
Any country that attempts to impose it's will on this country brings on it's self and it's people what it asks for by doing so.

I myself do NOT want to see my country get involed in any other countries internal dispute,riots and or civil war.

Firstly, he has lost power. The government within a country is supposed to have a monopoly on the use of force, this is clearly no longer the case in Libya.

Secondly, your comparison between the rights of the people in the USA and Gaddafi is completely flawed. There is clearly a huge difference between intervening to subvert the will of the people and to protect the rights of the people from the whim of a crazy dictator.

As for saying that Libya is 'Gaddafi's country', that is a ridiculous statement to make. A country and its people cannot be the property of one man.

You also claim that the people being killed are all armed rebels. Where have you been during the last month? Gaddafi has been indiscriminately killing anyone and everyone who dares to protest against him. The main reason there are any armed rebels at all is because they have had to take up arms against him.

Finally, Libya is a textbook example for intervention on humanitarian grounds. There is a clear breakdown in the 'fit' between the government and the people, there is the danger of a genocide occurring and there is clearly a civil war taking place. To standby and watch whilst Gaddafi butchers his people would make us all complicit in his crimes - we have a duty to protect life, which overrides our duty to respect other countries sovereignty. I protested against the Iraq war but intervention in Libya can't come soon enough. We don't need another Rwanda.

On a side note, you should really read Michael Walzer's 'Just and Unjust Wars' or look into Just War Theory to see detailed justification for intervention in general and to see just how clearly Libya fits into this framework. Walzer is a communitarian so you (Timex) might actually agree with him on a lot of things.

#1386625 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-03-18 11:37:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

To address your statements:
[quote]Firstly, he has lost power.[/quote]
You are so wrong...he IS the person in power and so far nobody is able to stand against him so clearly he will remain so.
[quote]Secondly, your comparison between the rights of the people in the USA and Gaddafi is completely flawed. There is clearly a huge difference between intervening to subvert the will of the people and to protect the rights of the people from the whim of a crazy dictator.
[/quote]
No it's not flawed in the least.
Perhaps you so re-read what it is I said and not attempt to read into or alter what it is I DID say.
Further don't attempt to tell me about assholes in government office doing what they can to subvert either the will of the People or the Law of a countries Constitution....as I have Obama and other scum in office here in my own country to deal with.
I helped fire a Governor of California...a Republic with a population larger than most countries on the planet...and I work to replace the Federal government "servents" who do not follow my countries Constitution...and educate the younger generation here to do the same rather than allow enslavement via apathy.
[quote]You also claim that the people being killed are all armed rebels.[/qoute]
Wrong.
I made no such "claim".
I stated an observation of fact.

Last edited by Timex at 2011-03-18 11:44:33

#1386638 by unknown[190316] at 2011-03-18 12:04:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Quote:


No it's not flawed in the least.
Perhaps you so re-read what it is I said and not attempt to read into or alter what it is I DID say.
Further don't attempt to tell me about assholes in government office doing what they can to subvert either the will of the People or the Law of a countries Constitution....as I have Obama and other scum in office here in my own country to deal with.
I helped fire a Governor of California...a Republic with a population larger than most countries on the planet...and I work to replace the Federal government "servents" who do not follow my countries Constitution...and educate the younger generation here to do the same rather than allow enslavement via apathy.

Sorry...what? This just makes no sense and is a wild rant about the state the US political system. Perhaps I should remind you that you are in the fortunate position of being able to influence politics and "educate" younger generations without the fear of being killed. This is not the case in Libya. If you can't see the difference between the UN saying it thinks that gun ownership is wrong, but respecting America's right to decide for itself, and intervening in a country where the people cannot practise self-determination without fear of being killed, then I don't know what to say.

Quote:

Wrong.
I made no such "claim".
I stated an observation of fact.

And where do you get these 'facts'? Information coming out of Libya at the moment is pretty sketchy at the moment because it has become to dangerous for journalists but here is an article form a month ago that puts a conservative estimate of civilian deaths at 233.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/02/20/l … l-killings

Finally, when I read the stuff you post it mainly seems to run along the theme of you versus the corrupt establishment so I must assume that you place a high value on individual liberties and have little trust in governments. Am I right? If so, how can you possibly believe that is more important to respect Libya's sovereignty and the presumptive legitimacy of its government than it is to protect the rights and liberties off its people. I'm sure you would be the first to take up arms to defend the rights of the American people, so why are the Libyan people to be treated any differently?

Edit: Just saw this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12784729 -  Looks like the no-fly zone is about to start being enforced

#1386651 by TheBigDon (Power User) at 2011-03-18 13:02:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Libya have announced a ceasefire.

Just pisses me off that the UK got involved :/ Cameron trying to be billy big balls, what he's got to prove god only knows.  It's got nothing to do with us.

Last edited by TheBigDon at 2011-03-18 13:04:34

#1386653 by gullf1sk (Power User) at 2011-03-18 13:03:41 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Nevermind

Last edited by gullf1sk at 2011-03-18 13:04:09

#1386931 by I (Power User) at 2011-03-19 12:21:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

There is a vote today in Egypt on some constitutional changes. First real vote since the royal period (yes there was more democracy back then). The muslim brotherhood is asking people to vote yes while almost every other political group asking them to say no. No one imagined this could happen one month ago


This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

Last edited by I at 2011-03-19 12:44:58

#1386991 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-03-19 16:36:45 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

I wrote:

There is a vote today in Egypt on some constitutional changes. First real vote since the royal period (yes there was more democracy back then). The muslim brotherhood is asking people to vote yes while almost every other political group asking them to say no. No one imagined this could happen one month ago

http://i52.tinypic.com/28uqwrt.jpg

I did.
I also said I hope they do not make the fatal mistake of attempting to become a pure democracy.

#1387213 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-21 12:25:30 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

@timex
Agree

@I
i didn't expect the total number of voters to become 18mil, was putting 10 mil as an unreachable number in a debate once, but guess i was wrong

Also, i kinda knew the flow everywhere and where it was going, just didn't expect YES to win over NO by this much. 77.2 vs 22.8

#1387217 by Angelitta (Power User) at 2011-03-21 12:36:31 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ipoli.html

Six hero pilots return home safe and sound from a bombing mission to Libya which saw them in the cockpit for an incredible 25 hours.

Three B-2 Spirit bombers, piloted by two men each, made it back after the 11,418-mile round trip from the Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri where they are kept in special climate controlled hangars to Libya where they hit targets on forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi and back again.

At $2.1bn, they are the most expensive warplanes in the world and rarely leave their climate controlled hangars. But when it does, the B2 bomber makes a spectacularly effective start to a war - including during this weekend's aerial attack on Libya's air defences.
One of three Air Force Global Striek Command B-2 Spirit bombers returning to base at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri

One of three Air Force Global Striek Command B-2 Spirit bombers returning to base at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri


This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

The two pilots of the B-2 bomber flew for 25 hours on the 12,000 mile round trip to bomb Gaddafi targets

Touchdown: The skin of the bombers is so sensitive that it has to be kept in special climate controlled shelters where it is taped and cured after every mission

more text in the article


This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

#1387221 by unknown[417104] at 2011-03-21 13:02:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Please, all posts about the conflict in libya should be in the thread we have called "War in libya"

#1387227 by Angelitta (Power User) at 2011-03-21 13:28:32 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

grrr... my bad... I was going to post these in the Libya thread and just post an Al Jazeera link here, saying there's an uprising in Yemen now...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl … 79476.html

Several top Yemeni army commanders have declared their support for anti-government protesters seeking the resignation of the country's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh

Sorry ... i only slept about 3 hours last night... it shows.

#1387242 by hmhefDonor (VIP) at 2011-03-21 14:29:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

I was supporting 'YES' in the last vote


- who said NO:
ALL old political forces
ALL new-ish political forces that 'ignited' the revolution, including the barad3y
the Church / Egyption Copts
islamic preachers (amr khaled)
allot of famouos artists/people

- who said YES:
brotherhood
NDP (what the revolution started against)
the egyption people , the REAL fuel of the revolution



My opinion why 'YES':
- I do not want a non elected presdential commitee probably including the barad3y
- I trust the army 100%, and want them to continue do what they do.
- I do not want some people to contiune talking in my name in the streets, and saying 'the people wants ...'
- I am not going to base my yes/no on wether who said yes or who said no ... (brotherhood say yes, then i shouldn't just say the opposite , regardless of what is good for me)

#1387244 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-21 14:40:09 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

what does 3 mean?

like baradei instead you write barad3y

how is it pronounced?

#1387248 by hmhefDonor (VIP) at 2011-03-21 15:00:38 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

dodeliatcha wrote:

what does 3 mean?

like baradei instead you write barad3y

how is it pronounced?

english has no letter that sounds like the real name sounds, so we replace it with 3 ,
you are right, some people replace it with 'e' , or an apostrophe

Last edited by hmhef at 2011-03-21 15:01:25

#1387327 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-21 20:32:35 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

just to note:

- every group got its reasons for yes/no

- the groups for both votes (yes/no) are far greater than what hmhef mentioned, but he presented it with a good summary

- NDP were believed to support NO, as their official statement was YES >> since they are hated, and they represent the previous regime, wouldn't it be more supporting to their view to take the opposite side and announce it so the VOTERS will side accordingly to the OTHER vote?! just a theory supported by weak evidence

- i don't think there is a point to discuss why and who said yes/no after the survey results were announced, i voted YES >> me and hmhef having something common in this thread , lots of my family members supported NO though, which is good as EACH got a different background taking the decision accordingly

"i blame the army for not making things clearer and things turning into a religious opinion lately on some points the army discussed later "too late though" not to have any effect in both cases YES/NO"

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-21 22:24:40

#1388472 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-03-25 14:40:43 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Interesting article in the NYT today...

Muslim Brotherhood a Rising Force in a New Egypt
(let me know if you cant read this outside of US and ill post it in full)

Quote:

The Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist group once banned by the state, is at the forefront, transformed into a tacit partner with the military government that many fear will thwart fundamental changes...

“There is evidence the Brotherhood struck some kind of a deal with the military early on,” said Elijah Zarwan, a senior analyst with the International Crisis Group...

It is also clear that the young, educated secular activists who initially propelled the nonideological revolution are no longer the driving political force

“We are all worried,” said Amr Koura, 55, a television producer, reflecting the opinions of the secular minority. “The young people have no control of the revolution anymore. It was evident in the last few weeks when you saw a lot of bearded people taking charge. The youth are gone.”

This is the fear most westerners have in that a Muslim country it just seems impossible for a non-Islamic hardline party to stand a chance. They have centuries of programing people so its very easy for them to imply openly or otherwise that voting against them is tad amount (vbg :tease:) to blasphemy and once they get in they rewrite all the laws to make it impossible to get out.

#1389568 by I (Power User) at 2011-03-30 00:04:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

Egypt: The youth wanna another millioneya next friday. I really hope it works. The army old generals don't seem to understand the change and they don't move their ass without pressures. (Can't think of all of the requests they will fill before next friday, within few days they will do what they failed to do last 3 weeks :giggle:

#1390421 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-04-02 21:07:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

why did we start a new thread btw? Libya is a result of the unrest in the middle east


btw I've read that saleh the yemeni president is stepping down

#1390444 by unknown[417104] at 2011-04-02 23:16:00 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

dodeliatcha wrote:

why did we start a new thread btw? Libya is a result of the unrest in the middle east


btw I've read that saleh the yemeni president is stepping down

Because the Libya situation has escalated to a point it is no longer viable to mix the two discussions. Military intervention by NATO and other countries made it worth a new topic.

#1390902 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-04-05 05:47:31 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

dodeliatcha wrote:

why did we start a new thread btw? Libya is a result of the unrest in the middle east


btw I've read that saleh the yemeni president is stepping down

Eh....EU contries are working for not just a better oil deal but a WAY better deal with who takes over...and they are attempting to "pimp" arms for sale to many other countries such as Brazil as have'n been "combat proven".

#1391073 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-04-05 21:22:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

really??

#1391800 by VeryBadGuyDonor (Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-04-09 13:48:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

ha..military aren't moving fast enough for the unrealistic expectations of the Egyptian people..solution? Let's protest and riot! And then blame the military for kicking the shit out of us!

You know..the guys that held your hands and sang peacful songs about a better tomorrow for Egypt? The guys who even a rocket scientist could have figured out would never put the fate of the country into the hands of the people.

Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where this was going to end up :rolleyes:

#1391908 by wardukeDonor (Power User) at 2011-04-09 19:38:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]Top

cut the military budget and you won't have your country interfering in others affairs..

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