Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1383167 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-06 15:45:47 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

What do you mean the revolution has succeeded demagh?

#1383184 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-06 16:29:10 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

What do you mean the revolution has succeeded demagh?

i meant that the hardest milestone has been reached, and sooner or later this will be over with no chance of returning back. National security agency IMO was the real ruler of this country .. now .. we gotta choose for ourselves.

"in sha'a Allah"

#1383475 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-03-07 21:45:45 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@ demagh

- facebook only has 'like' and doesn't have a 'dis-like', and many people click 'like' even if they dont actually like a thing to follow its comments, and shafik had a group asking him to stay as PM with over 130k likes, now its removed though.

- "the only revolution its ppl trying to convince their ppl they are working for their sake" , revolution are supposed to be people against the regime, if you have to convince the people, ........

- exploiting 'national security' like it did is never a good thing, exposing different people to the public allowing for possible blackmail, exposing lists and contact info of over 1 million pollice officer and putting their life and families at risk, exposing major investigation about drugs / spies ... , and do you think all the people that tried to go their are innocent, and not actually some other drug traders / killers / criminals that want to either look for their files or benefit from other people secret info

i do not want to argue with you, we clearly have different points of views, so lets move on ....

------

VBG wrote:

But how do you possibly plan to achieve them? At the risk of sounding stupid but how can those be truely implemented in a country where more than 90% of the population follow Islam?

Islam is not the problem, and is never going to be,
Trying to attack it will make radical turn to violent, and will make normal groups turn radical

The constitution currently stats:
"the islam is the religion of the country, and the sharia is the source of the laws"
I do not want that to change.
Egypt has been a great example of moderate Islam.
For example; The sharia laws actually do give people freedom of religion , to have the option to be ruled by christan/jewish laws and limitation when dealing with christans/jews

------

now on the ME,

doesnt this sound like WW3 ?

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/03/04/isr … n-algeria/

and making people believe that nukes would help the world:
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/ … mp;emc=rss

#1383487 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-07 22:18:03 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef how is it moderate when you get executed for converting from islam? The majority of women in Egypt have been genitally mutilated, thats not moderate. UN has no tolerance for female genital cutting..United Nations has declared February 6 as "International Day of Zero Tolerance to Female Genital Mutilation".

You said:
For example; The sharia laws actually do give people freedom of religion , to have the option to be ruled by christan/jewish laws and limitation when dealing with christans/jews

Is that it? You only have the option to be ruled by religious law? What if you are some other faith? or Atheist/Agnostic?

What if you convert? Then Sharia law says you should be killed? But then you are treated as a muslim instead of jewish/christian. Despite that you converted? Doesnt sound moderate to me

#1383489 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-03-07 22:28:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

The constitution currently stats:
"the islam is the religion of the country, and the sharia is the source of the laws"

Does sharia allow to examine every case as individual case (as a really working law shuld) ?
Or are the judgements "declared" before the court hearing ?
For example divorce and child custody etc.

Quote:

Very good point,very good:

Quote:

Is that it? You only have the option to be ruled by religious law? What if you are some other faith? or Atheist/Agnostic?

Very good point again. Freedom of religion includes also the freedom of not belonging to any religion or not believing in god also.

Quote:

Despite that you converted? Doesnt sound moderate to me

True, because there is no moderate islam, it does not exist, there are only moderate muslims.

#1383499 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-07 22:53:32 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

hmhef how is it moderate when you get executed for converting from islam?

that's not always the case, or the clear case to be exact. When someone accepts islam as his religion, he accepts this with KNOWING this punishment, not to become a game of religions.

Some scholars agreed to the BORN muslims to convert as they weren't put to REAL/ADULT choice, they even fabricated a law stating if that was done, both the original religion/previous religion should be written in the ID card for social purposes "of course that's for both cases, from islam or into islam"

Quote:

The majority of women in Egypt have been genitally mutilated, thats not moderate. UN has no tolerance for female genital cutting

there are 3 types of genital cutting for females, the one islam is stating isn't by any means eliminating the pleasure for women. That tiny point called in arabic "Buthr", don't know the english term, may be confused of it a bit "clitoris?" is a bit TOO long in some cases, it may even reach 6 cm in sever cases .. and some women .. world wide .. have this issue, the point is getting it to its NORMAL/mostly known size without totally taking it off so that the woman doesn't lose its pleasure. why?! that's another story

Problem is, in Upper Egypt and many small villages, it is KNOWN there as a deprived of REAL education culture that this part should be totally cut off. Even for married uncircumcised women, before their husbands travel abroad, sometimes they cut it off so that they remove the pleasure for their wives doubting their faithfulness to them. >> this is not from islam and this is totally terrifying sometimes, but generally, when the subject is opened, this is the MOST type discussed, which is pissing me off

The 3rd type, is only existing in some parts in africa .. they turn the vagina into .. something else, one of its procedures is cutting the LIPS off .. surely ugly thing, but hey, we don't hear about that because it is not affecting muslims by any means negatively, so let's keep the news up where it is intended to be ppl.

how i know this much about this?!
was a research in an islamic class i was taking long ago when the subject was opened through a CNN video, showing the 2nd type of course.

Quote:

..United Nations has declared February 6 as "International Day of Zero Tolerance to Female Genital Mutilation".

good for them

Quote:

You said:
For example; The sharia laws actually do give people freedom of religion , to have the option to be ruled by christan/jewish laws and limitation when dealing with christans/jews

Is that it? You only have the option to be ruled by religious law? What if you are some other faith? or Atheist/Agnostic?

What if you convert? Then Sharia law says you should be killed? But then you are treated as a muslim instead of jewish/christian. Despite that you converted? Doesnt sound moderate to me

don't know where to begin or what am i replying to, but seems to take sometime and i don't really want to turn the thread into one of those long never ending threads, if you want to ask about something for YOUR knowledge and not just for the sake of argument, you are more than welcome to PM me anytime, if not, let's spare each other's times.

back on topic

@hmhef

Quote:

- facebook only has 'like' and doesn't have a 'dis-like', and many people click 'like' even if they dont actually like a thing to follow its comments, and shafik had a group asking him to stay as PM with over 130k likes, now its removed though.

[1] where is the PRO mubarak / previous regime / other opinion group?! how many liked those .. can we measure this way?!
[2] again, what's the LIKE count of THAT group .. if the like on the revolution side is not a right/near estimate, i agree, but at least give me a number to compare it to.
[3] it is not removed, sometimes it just don't open, it reached 168k last time i checked, not opening now btw, give it 5 minutes and try again

Quote:

- "the only revolution its ppl trying to convince their ppl they are working for their sake" , revolution are supposed to be people against the regime, if you have to convince the people, ........

many articles discussed this, Stockholm Syndrome is the most famous i guess.

Quote:

- exploiting 'national security' like it did is never a good thing, exposing different people to the public allowing for possible blackmail, exposing lists and contact info of over 1 million pollice officer and putting their life and families at risk, exposing major investigation about drugs / spies ... , and do you think all the people that tried to go their are innocent, and not actually some other drug traders / killers / criminals that want to either look for their files or benefit from other people secret info

I have friends there BTW, i have been held into the airport for 6 hours doing nothing "wasn't even questioned" as i have a bit of a beard "not that Afghanistan one, may be that stylish, not appearing beard" when i was waiting for my Dad's plane to arrive who didn't find me and was sick worried as i answered the phone when the plane landed, but when the phone was taken and i couldn't move .. he just didn't know what to do, finally, 6 hours later, i was released .. "also not questioned", as the head officer for the airport wasn't coming today. Some spent 12 years of their lives in there for NO reason.

Watch the videos of Bilal Fadl, Al Baradie and you'll understand what this Agency was really doing.

Also there is a video for 3 persons discussing how they were tortured in there spreading through the facebook called something like "18+ only"

also, the images for the electric torturing equipments when the protesters came out of the National Security Buildings were clear enough that something inhumane was going on in there.

Another example, when al baradie came to egypt before 28/1/2011, he had his movements monitored and limited for NO reason, by the same agency.

Quote:

i do not want to argue with you, we clearly have different points of views, so lets move on ....

well, actually i did move one, 3 posts ago, or may be 5

EDITED:

@sniperfin

Quote:

Does sharia allow to examine every case as individual case (as a really working law shuld) ?
Or are the judgements "declared" before the court hearing ?
For example divorce and child custody etc.

Each case is handled individually, and sometimes with EXTREME exceptions.

In a poor village, when it is hard to find food for most/some ppl, when thief steals something, his hand is not cut off, even if that something he stole is valuable.

I think, there is a great difference between putting the law in practice and living by its spirit .. islam is tending to do the latter .. that's what i was raised to believe and had some education in.

Quote:

Very good point again. Freedom of religion includes also the freedom of not belonging to any religion or not believing in god also.

I can't go into discussion through this point in details and i REALLY don't know the islamic point of view regarding this one as i was raised and lived in a country with 3 known religions only, all heavenly religions, we eat each other's food "except pork for us muslims/jews" and when the majority rules, it is an islamic majority, so can't go into more details, but i believe turkey's good example that might answer parts of your question.

Quote:

True, because there is no moderate islam, it does not exist, there are only moderate muslims

i strongly disagree, will not prove something here, but i'll give you something to think about.

In Saudi Arabia, the population in Mekka/Maddina is 100% muslims, they got their OWN rules, they are cultured already into a direction that is weird even for muslims all over the world. Islam there got some real restrictions dealing with Christians/other religions, even their scholars got some really extreme views on the work environment, like hire muslims even if they suck balls .. etc

In Egypt, things are different, the culture was known for its Jewish/Christian/Muslim combination for so long, of course this affected the psychology of the scholars here, and totally different schools of tolerance were unintentionally created, because they were previously existing.

In Russia, things are totally different ... etc

What's is really attractive about Islam, each of these cultures see from the teachings of qur'an/Sunna what makes them obedient, all in the same time.

It affects the culture within the previous teachings/formalities .. it doesn't turn the world into a SINGLE culture/idea.

This is a very weak reply of course, but the subject in details may get a lot boring, i can give you examples of different "fatawa" for the same questions all night long explaining the idea.

EDITED:
last 3rd of my post is for sniper, between the original post and the edit is sometime, and i didn't want him to miss it and ask about it again later.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-07 23:48:03

#1383524 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-03-08 00:42:30 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

Each case is handled individually, and sometimes with EXTREME exceptions.

I am more interested on cases where the situation is man vs woman, not the extremem punishments like handcutting etc. which in my opinion are not very common (although every signle one ends up in headlines, but still I don't see them happening so often).
Like divorce and child custody, what I have read and studied, the children are going to father almost every case, no matter how bad father he is, simply because he is a man.
Same with heritage, son gets it but must provide the daughter, but how that is working in reality is an another issue.
My point is that laws written by nomads almost 1,5k years ago are just not fitting todays world, they must evolve just like every other aspect in society has.

Also the 3 types of genital cutting explanation is not an excuse, clearly pure medical operations due the size or some other physical issue are not counted as genital mutilation and is not counted on the list.
Just like amputating a leg for medical reasons is not an excuse/comparison to cutting a leg as an punishment.
It's true that genital cutting is mostly cultural based thing, but why is it usually a proble in islamic countries is something to be thinked of, just like honor murder. The womans positon in society is the key factor in this issue and that drivers directly from islam.
Europe is great example,just like in islam, religion (christianity in this case) was used to supress women, but the more secular europe has become, the more equall women have become and they don't have to hide their sexuality etc. anymore and they are not posessions of their men anymore, in islam they still are.

#1383537 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-08 01:10:49 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

Like divorce and child custody, what I have read and studied, the children are going to father almost every case, no matter how bad father he is, simply because he is a man.

on the contrary, women got most rights favored to their side on such occasions, and we are NOT IRAN / SHIAA, totally different there.

Quote:

Same with heritage, son gets it but must provide the daughter, but how that is working in reality is an another issue.

are we going man vs woman OR brother vs sister?! because in the heritage, according to the relation, the woman sometimes gets more than the man and vice versa. "bet you didn't hear that at all before"

For example, the mother sometimes gets more than the children, even if they were males.

If we are comparing brother vs sister "mostly within the same age" , that's because mostly in islamic countries women are not asked for house payments, purchasing/renting a house to live in .. etc, they mostly stay at home, or if they work, they kinda spend their money on gold and jewelry, so the man have to keep it up a bit.

Quote:

My point is that laws written by nomads almost 1,5k years ago are just not fitting todays world, they must evolve just like every other aspect in society has.

flexible laws can cover up for 100,000 years "revise the living with the law's spirit part before in my previous post", also, we are talking about laws written by GOD .. the all mighty, knowledgeable .. etc .. you know the rest and don't believe in it, just explaining our point of view here.

Also, more flexibility here that the Arabic language can have more than a meaning to the same sentence, which i discussed before in many threads where the translation of the quran topic was opened. So, whatever is not relative to today's world, let's try to understand it differently, could it mean some deeper/another meaning?! is there some more information to extract?!

This is where the outsider "non-muslim/scholar" brain just stops, it needs the following to be able to fully understand the procedure which for short includes, memorizing the whole quran to be able to see the issue fully mentioned all over and all the cases of it, memorizing most TRUE Ahadeeth and know that hadeeth route, TRUE deepness into the language and good knowledge of its usage "as said before, the arabic language is complicated, its dictionary is like a pocket book of 150~200 pages, its usage is something else, see Tongue of Arabs, which consists of 5 parts, each of 500 pages at least" >> of course many editions are out, might have changed a bit from the one i have, finally LOCAL knowledge of the countries/ppls situations, that's why we can't accept someone's FATWA in SAUDI ARABIA to suit us in Egypt, we need an Egyptian, Socially active scholar or an islamic Egyptian organization like Azahr to take its fatwa to live with.

many, many, many examples right there, but let's skip the details for when we meet someday, each with his sword

Quote:

Also the 3 types of genital cutting explanation is not an excuse, clearly pure medical operations due the size or some other physical issue are not counted as genital mutilation and is not counted on the list.
Just like amputating a leg for medical reasons is not an excuse/comparison to cutting a leg as an punishment.
It's true that genital cutting is mostly cultural based thing, but why is it usually a proble in islamic countries is something to be thinked of, just like honor murder. The womans positon in society is the key factor in this issue and that drivers directly from islam.
Europe is great example,just like in islam, religion (christianity in this case) was used to supress women, but the more secular europe has become, the more equall women have become and they don't have to hide their sexuality etc. anymore and they are not posessions of their men anymore, in islam they still are.

1- excuse for what?! i am saying we are not doing any harm with the first kind and you are asking me for an excuse?! what punishment?! you kinda lost me there.

If you are asking for the reason, i have no better way than replying in arabic, but will give it a shot, if that's what you are asking for.

Another issue, what if it was of a normal size?! leave it .. no circumcision here

2- the woman suppression stuff in most Islamic countries are myths, waiting for the myth-busters to prove them wrong .. i wish

3- again, women in Islam are far away from being suppressed, actually Islam removed a lot of suppression that was happening to women before, but the problem remains in MUSLIMS not ISLAM.

4- Finally, women are not our possessions, they have the right not to lift a finger at home "meaning if she refused to cook, clean .. etc" that's her right and is to be respected by man. If she wants a divorce(called KHOLE'A when the woman does it) she just returns back the man's presents or have a deal with him they both agree on, and no one can make her stay. If the man divorced her and she had (a) child(ren), the apartment is hers, if he had two apartments, one is rich, the other is poor, the richer one is hers. Until she is married, he got to spend alimony if she is not capable to support herself/children. If she doesn't have a child, she keeps whatever he gave her and can sue him for whatever reason applicable.

I might ask you to read Soret "Al-Nisa'a (WOMEN)" 4th in Quran, considered one of the 7th greatest of Quran, with some clarifying elaboration to know how Islam tried to discuss all women issues and include HER actively within the Islamic society, though i am not sure the translated version would serve you right.

EDITED:
ALOT, re-read if this doesn't make sense at some parts before replying

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-08 01:33:45

#1383542 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-03-08 01:35:11 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@demagh

- facebook 'liking' is not limited to egyptions only, bottom line, not to be taken seriously.

- i have no doubt that allot of the mess we are in now is due to the old regime fucking up, but that does not justify somethings like ambushing the 'national security' , due to the risks I wrote in my last post

@dodeliatcha , sniperfin

from my point of view,

Islam in it self is not a culture, it just gives few rules and limitation that affects cultures

few years ago, when scientists said that FGM is not good for women health and could result in direct harm to women, the official country islamic scholars said that islam said to follow science evidence, and that through time people change, and islamic laws allows us to adapt (within limits) specially when there is scientific clear evidence and direction, and that things like that should be changed in cases like this, .... and they made alot of public advertising saying "no to FGM"

there is no limitations that i am aware of on athesim ..., and i guess civil laws can apply, ofcourse laws like that will be made by the parliament

sniperfin wrote:

Does sharia allow to examine every case as individual case (as a really working law shuld) ?
Or are the judgements "declared" before the court hearing ?
For example divorce and child custody etc.

yes, every case is different, like in cases of incompetent parents ...etc.

#1383543 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-08 01:40:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Okok demagh I still dont agree with what you said about GFC because other islamic countries dont have nearly as much as you have it..maybe somalia..

Anyways lets drop that..a new question is Shia..how do you view shia twelver islam? and how is shia islam viewed in general in egypt? (keep in mind that their might be shia muslims on this forum

Can you explain to us the difference?..from your point of view of course..

this is a serious question about middle east unrest, its on-topic since the shia/sunni divide will play a large role in the unrests..like bahrain and how neighnbouring countries treat eachother..

like iraq and iran..both shia majority countries..and azerbaijan

read an interesting article the other day, how iraqi sunnis thought they where the majority in iraq..and that the "shia majority" was a conspiracy by the u.s

loooool omg they are like twice as many (this is for all to read) not a question to demagh

#1383563 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-08 05:50:20 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@dodeliatcha
is it not number related as much as what kind is mostly being performed, so, agree or not, the one that islam is being accused off carries no harm to no one,which is not something mentioned in most media spots.

shia are divided into more than 46 clans if i remember correctly, Zaydeya, Twelver ... etc, lots of differences between each. Shia islam is mostly viewed as .. a weird islamic view in the Sunna countries, though it is respected a bit without much knowledge of what it really is.

Some key issues between Sunna/Shia:

- welayet al fakeeh>> the ruler is the most knowledgeable by Shareia

- Emam holiness >> they look up to their emams with exaggerated respect, which sometimes question the intentions of some actions, or at least put some unanswered questions aside.

- pleasure marriage >> a timed marriage where they can marry even babies to fool around with for 2 ~ 3 hours as long as he arranged that with the parents "who of course don't have a saying towards the emam's word", of course this marriage includes the marriage first present "called mahr in arabic", which might turn this into a WHORING contest, where parents are pimps and emams/whoever are pleasure payers

- some even claim "don't know their clan's name though", that the angel Gabriel reached muhamad by mistake, and it was Ali who was meant to carry the message to the ppl >> which is a matter of belief, and sunna don't take these lightly, they consider them another religion, not branched from islam, not representing islam for such belief.

- of course some even claimed that Ali got some Godly powers, rulings ... etc, which is also a matter of belief and something that's too close to the christian faith, which is not acceptable for Sunna

- Al takkeya "Concept of lying to save your life", is being practiced NOW by shia to gain more grounds and become popular, not because they are afraid for their lives, they think of sunna as their enemies, who they don't want to have conflicts with nowadays, so they smile in your face, turn back and plan for your death. Of course that's too general to be put like i did, but the problem is it is written in their books, and most of their people claim the opposite "they are as old as Sunna, may be 23 years difference or so"

- they are nearly 10~13% of the whole islamic population world wide, not exceeding this percentagel among 1.5 bil of course

and lots of other differences, but these are the key ones AFAIK/remember

History between Sunna/Shia:
The history between both is filled with BLOOD, when they first appeared in Ali Bin Abi Talib "who is sunna btw, but they relate to to themselves as well" khilafa time it was around the year 25 in the islamic calender "if i remember correctly", he dug a big hole in the ground, gathered a lot of them in it, and lit them up on fire, even the ones escaped from such massacre claimed that Ali is GOD as no one is to torture by fire but its creator.

Of course right now, the Sunna/Shia are exchanging insults in many occasions, but having common aspects/demands internationally lately kinda limited the gap between both schools, though, the shia one is expected to turn onto the Sunna whenever they think is the right time, at least that's what sunna scholars think that Takkeya is for ...

note:
No need for warnings, all religions/practices are respected, in my posts. expect those who make money just for the heck of it, like you can't join a group before paying some fees, that's BS

Finally:
i studied for 3 months some of their understanding/teachings to ISLAM, and was mostly shocked, was like 99.999% of the time shocked, that's how contradictory i think this school is to SUNNA. Of course most my readings where concentrated original on the conflicts, but .. didn't expect them to be like that .. mostly

@Shia who might be reading this
I don't have anything against you, though if you think i am making stuff up, i can get you the books names i read into PLUS the books names you have in your library discussing this takkeya issue and some other stuff as well.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-08 09:26:09

#1383663 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-03-08 16:56:33 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

From the very little Ive read of the Sunni and Shia beliefs it seemed to me its almost like comparing mainstream Christians (Catholics /protestants) to Mormons. They are all built on the same foundation only the later took it and basically kept building onto it where it has almost become something else entirely.

#1383715 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-03-08 19:21:38 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Iraq:

gotta thank the usa for bringing democracy to Iraq,

Quote:

The Associated Press reports at least 11 protesters have been killed so far, as security forces in northern Iraqi cities have opened gunfire on crowds, killing nine. In Baghdad, protesters have knocked over blast walls and thrown rocks at security troops.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/304039

http://firedoglake.com/2011/03/06/peace … e-in-iraq/

#1383725 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-08 20:14:34 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

I have read it too, and I disagree with you.

The split between shia and sunni was from the beginning.

Quote from islamfortoday :

History
Ali is the central figure at the origin of the Shia / Sunni split which occurred in the decades immediately following the death of the Prophet in 632. Sunnis regard Ali as the fourth and last of the "rightly guided caliphs" (successors to Mohammed (pbuh) as leader of the Muslims) following on from Abu Bakr 632-634, Umar 634-644 and Uthman 644-656. Shias feel that Ali should have been the first caliph and that the caliphate should pass down only to direct descendants of Mohammed (pbuh) via Ali and Fatima, They often refer to themselves as ahl al bayt or "people of the house" [of the prophet].

In what way is it comparable to Catholics/Protestants and the Church of the latterday saints??? Isnt it more comparable to Catholics vs Protestants?

At heart, Sunnis and Shiites are like Catholics and Protestants in the commonality of some fundamental beliefs. But their differences, especially in nations where the Sunni-Shiite split is exacerbated by each other's proximity (as in Iraq and Lebanon), run so deep that intolerance and violence shadow the two groups, making coexistence difficult. Conspiracy theories about eachother arise very easily under these circumstances. I dont understand how you can make that distinction qbert95.

My neighbour is a practicing shia muslim, he says he does not regard sunnis as "enemies". He regards them just as muslim as everybody else. But also says that shia muslims dont blow themselves up. That in iraq most of the terrorist bombings in markets, carbombs and suicide bombers. and stuff like that come from foreign sunni fighters.

I checked it out on newspapers, and its always sunni islamist groups bombing themselves in a shia shrine or market in iraq? Al-Qaida see shia as heretics and hate them.(though this claim I havent confirmed..he just said it).. qbert95 you should know that while iran is a shia country..shias atleast dont blow themselves up on american soil. When newspapers talk about potential threats in iraq, they say shia militants and sunni suicide bombers..

BBC news quote : Violence in Iraq has dropped sharply since the height of the conflict in 2006-07, but bombings are still common.

Suicide attacks on Shia pilgrims are so frequent that they have claimed hundreds of lives in recent months, says the BBC's Jonathan Head in Baghdad

Al-Azhar quote: (something I found on internet)
For the readership's reference the phrase "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna 'Ashariyyah" means the Twelver Imami Shi'ite School of thought which comprises the overwhelming majority of Shi'ites today. The phrase "Twelver Shi'ites" is used interchangeably with "Ja'fari Shi'ites" and "Imami Shi'ites" in various literature. They are merely different names for the same school of thought. So obviously they are not that diferent?

the Al-Azhar University does not see shia as potential enemies.??.

EDIT ::::

hmhef wrote:

Iraq:

gotta thank the usa for bringing democracy to Iraq,

Quote:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/304039

http://firedoglake.com/2011/03/06/peace … e-in-iraq/

hmhef yes we should thank the United States because atleast we in the west have given iraq a chance..saddam was one hell of a dictator... -.- Not many were worse than him..he made egypts mubarak and libyas gaddafi look like saints.. GO USA !!!!

used biological weapons on kurds..routinely killed shias..

however the war was stupid strategically..cost alot of money and they havent benefitted from it..the americans that is..so they where stupid for doing it..but still, its better than saddam

I like the united states..had it not been for the u.s we would have been under soviet rule. Rather america as a superpower than china or russia

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-03-08 20:25:02

#1383726 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-08 20:15:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

this is more applicable comparing Sunni to Bahaa'i "taking into consideration the difference in time frames between the original and the newly introduced", though i think you are onto the same route of projection.

edited:

Quote:

gotta thank the usa for bringing democracy to Iraq

Quote:

but still, its better than saddam

if you are not an Iraqi, you have no right to declare what's better or what's worse for Iraq

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-08 20:31:14

#1383740 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-08 20:54:20 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

if you are not an Iraqi, you have no right to declare what's better or what's worse for Iraq

Well Im free to express my opinion and my opinion is that any country is better of without a brutal genocidal dictator. Just like you wanted to take down mubarak, the iraqis wanted to take down saddam (1992) but couldnt because of his outrageous policies.. He was a true mass murderer

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-03-08 20:54:51

#1383746 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-03-08 21:15:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

A country under dictator but not in chaos is better than a country under non dictator but in total chaos.
Atleast when saddam ruled,people obayed laws and rules and were not bombing each other.
Im pretty sure that if you count the average killed innocent people / month count, the current situation is much more worse than in saddams times.
And ironically it seems that democracy and change of government is going around the middle-east, risen by the poeple themselves (as it should) and afganista + iraq are going to be one of those countries which are left outside, quite opposite of what americans thought.

#1383747 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-08 21:20:01 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

I wasn't clear by such poor choice of words. What i meant, what anyone thinks is better doesn't matter, what matters is what the Iraqis KNOW is better.

Also, when THEY "the ppl" take him down, is a lot different than USA taking him down, cuz, you know, US have been there for 2 presidential elections now, each was promising to bring back THEIR troops safe HOME.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-09 00:26:41

#1383754 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-03-08 21:42:40 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Yeah I agree the ppl should take a dictator down themselves..change should come from the inside.

BUT, saddam hussein ruled his country by brutal force ( much more brutal than mubarak) and iraq was also isolated..there was an uprising in 1992 but it failed, saddams forces killed too many..the revolutions possible in egypt,tunisia and maybe libya was most likely not possible in iraq. Since the shia sunni divide is much bigger there..

Also sniperfin, We dont know how iraq will turn out. But thats not because of american interventionism.. the reason iraq is so unstable is because the country is divided in three big factions..shia...sunni and kurds..

but iraq has not been left outside the revolution..because they already had a big change..if iraq fails as a democracy..its the iraqis fault..they mistrust eachother too much..but also foreign powers like saudi arabia helping the sunnis and iran helping the shias

And tbh, the number of people killed since the war started in 2003 is probably not much higher than saddams most genocidal period (1982-1994).

Wikipedia:

The Al-Anfal Campaign was a genocida campaign against the Kurdish people (and many others) in Iraqi Kurdistan led by the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein and headed by Ali Hassan al-Majid. A series of attacks against the peshmerga rebels and the mostly Kurdish civilian population of rural Northern Iraq, conducted between 1986 and 1989 culminating in 1988. This campaign also targeted Shabaks and Yazidis, Assyrians, Turkoman people and Mandeans and many villages belonging to these ethnic groups were also destroyed. Some reports cite Saddam Hussein's army as being responsible for 200,000 civilian deaths during this period.

Thats more than almost all the ppl that have died in iraq war since it started....and thats just the kurds and other minorities..not the shia arabs?? are you really so sure that the people are suffering so much more now?

As for demagh : Barack Obama will bring home the troops from iraq this year? He just wanted to end the war responsibly..without just pulling out and creating some kind of vacuum. It was an agreement between the u.s. adminstration and the iraqi administration.

McCain however would have stayed..so that last argument doesnt really count

#1383773 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-03-08 22:33:23 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Welcome to the new Egypt...Christians protesting the burning of their church get attacked by Muslims with one killed...meanwhlie in another part of Cairo where women protest for equal rights they are shoved and heckled by men telling them to go home where they belong.

Hooray for Freedom from dictators...no way is Egypt going to go Radical right? :rolleyes:

#1383786 by unknown[293451] at 2011-03-08 23:28:21 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

As for demagh : Barack Obama will bring home the troops from iraq this year? He just wanted to end the war responsibly..without just pulling out and creating some kind of vacuum. It was an agreement between the u.s. adminstration and the iraqi administration.

Barack Obama has done nothing to end the war responsibly other than to follow the plan that was already in place before he was elected. A plan that was agreed upon by the Iraqi's and the Bush Administration in 2008.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 166035.ece

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Hooray for Freedom from dictators...no way is Egypt going to go Radical right? :rolleyes:

Of course they won't go radical. Islam is the religion of peace and once sharia is enacted peace, prosperity, and freedom will reign supreme. Blah!

Like I said earlier, dictatorship to theocracy is not a step forward.

#1383795 by demagh (User) at 2011-03-09 00:06:36 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

-.-

i don't know where to begin explaining what's currently happening, but for short, there are some anti-revolution scenarios being planted everywhere as the previous regime's last resort not to be completely off control, problem is, ppl are too ignorant to think before they act, at least most of them, which is causing this.

Anyway, let's just hope for the greater good and some wisdom within the coming few days.

P.S:
of course this ALL happened after SHAFEEK's resignation, the previous prime minister who was chosen by Mubarak.

What happened you say?!

Coincidentally, in the same day that shafeek introduced his resignation
- a fight between a muslim family and a christian one as the muslim daughter was in love with the christian guy, some dead heads, now the muslims burned the church and demanding the 700 christians to move out of the district
- 36 hours later, all CONFIDENTIAL files and folders were burnt in all National Security Agencies all at the SAME time
- Now, everywhere christians are demanding for the chruch to be re-built "which is the army instantly agreed to and will be held responsible to cover all the fees" and trying to show themselves.
- Instantly old/local/national news agencies claimed untruthfully that some Salafi's have gone to stop the protesters from spreading and hit the christians with stones "i was there today when i heard the news spread through alyoum7, and there was nothing, some cars just horning the crap out for ppl/christians to create an access for the vehicles"

so, the question again, coincidence?!

the women part, where did you get your info, didn't hear any of that?! though i heard some man held a sign in front of Al-Nozha Court asking to be treated equally as women by law as he was deprived from seeing his 16 years old daughter by his previous wife for no reason.

@buddy, thanks for replying to dodelicatcha point directed to me, couldn't have stated it better myself.

Also, for whoever is keeping the death counts since the blowing of the two towers, two towers victims, around 3000, Iraqis dropped dead since the invasion of USA to Iraq, 100,000 last time i checked.
YAY for american freedom

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-09 00:42:19

#1383799 by unknown[293451] at 2011-03-09 00:50:18 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

@buddy, thanks for replying to dodelicatcha point directed to me, couldn't have stated it better myself.

Also, for whoever is keeping the death counts since the blowing of the two towers, two towers victims, around 3000, Iraqis dropped dead since the invasion of USA to Iraq, 100,000 last time i checked.
YAY for american freedom

I'll be the first too say we shouldn't have gone into Iraq, but "American freedom", as you say, has nothing to do with the death toll in Iraq. The high death toll, of course, was caused by none other than followers of the religion of peace blowing themselves up while happily screaming Allah Akbar. Sunni killing Shia because they're Shia, and Shia killing Sunni because they're Sunni. It's all BULLSHIT if you ask me. I for one wish we had invested more intelligibly in nuclear technology so that the waste land that is called the Middle East was nothing more than a mere glimpse into what the world was like 1300 year ago. Unfortunately Western economies are so heavily dependent on oil that we must embroil ourselves into such madness.

#1383802 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-03-09 01:00:11 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

the women part, where did you get your info, didn't hear any of that?! though i heard some man held a sign in front of Al-Nozha Court asking to be treated equally as women by law as he was deprived from seeing his 16 years old daughter by his previous wife for no reason.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110308/ap_ … _s_protest

As for the death count...you want me to believe that the US military has killed 100,000 Iragis?
Of course not..if one iraqi kills another while the US is in Iraq they blame the US Military. If an Iraqi camal hearder is killed by a roadside bomb planted by other Iraqis...guess which column his death goes in? Now go and count how many are estimated to have died under Saddam's brutal rule...both 9-11 and everything since pales in comparison. Estimates of how many kurds he killed in 91 are sometimes quoted at over 200,000. I have read other estimates that put total deaths while he was in power close to a million....but then again that is obviously an exageration and we only believe exagerated death tolls when they are people killed by US soldiers right?

#1383804 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-03-09 01:12:44 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

i don't know where to begin explaining what's currently happening, but for short, there are some anti-revolution scenarios being planted everywhere as the previous regime's last resort not to be completely off control, problem is, ppl are too ignorant to think before they act, at least most of them, which is causing this.

Anyway, let's just hope for the greater good and some wisdom within the coming few days.

P.S:
of course this ALL happened after SHAFEEK's resignation, the previous prime minister who was chosen by Mubarak.

dont you see how ridiculous that sounds ???

it seems that some people are just trying to make justification to the chaos, and for the revolution itself with some crazy conspiracy theories ..

all the heads are in jail, and the national security itself is not 'active' anymore as their work place was destroyed ...

do you really think that all the shit in the country is due to the dead regime, and that all the egyption people are just cute peaceful bunnies , and we have no thugs or thieves , at all ?

Quote:

what is happening now was expected, people stopped fighting over the only thing that united them, and now they are fighting each other,
and they are fighting now with the same elevated level of anger and chaos

actually the protest that was asking women to "go home where they belong" was quite funny :-P

alot of people seems to follow the advice demagh posted few posts back:
if you are so many .. go protest peacefully @ al tahrir and show yourselves up
but on every single thing .. and in many different places,
and where there is opposite protests, violent clashes happens

Last edited by hmhef at 2011-03-09 01:25:44

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