Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1380888 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-25 17:21:20 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Gadaffhi just armed his supporters.

This is going to be a civil war.

#1380890 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-25 17:36:14 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hOG wrote:

Interesting editorial from Arab News site:

"The Arab League should authorize military intervention to stop the killing

THE people of Libya are under attack and need protection. Now. Not in a few weeks’ time. By then countless thousands could be dead.

Normally the world looks to the UN to provide the means in such circumstances. But the UN has shown itself divided and ineffectual over Libya. It is not capable of helping — even though it has a unique relationship with the country. Libya is the UN’s baby. It was the first and only state created by it. But even if the UN does decide on sanctions and a no-fly zone, they will not stop the killing. A no-fly zone did not protect the inhabitants of northern and southern Iraq from Saddam Hussein’s henchmen. It is not going to protect the people of eastern Libya from Qaddafi’s. The people of Libya need action now. They need armed protection. That means military intervention.

That has to come, can only come, from other Arab states.

..."

source: http://arabnews.com/opinion/editorial/article283342.ece

edited

Yea that's exactly what Libya needs. Let's send in troops from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, and Algeria. Perhaps once they get through killing and torturing their own citizens they can take some of their free time and go "liberate" the people of Libya.

These countries neither have the means nor the will to intervene in Libya. After all most of them are dictators themselves and are not going to send their troops to remove a dictator in Libya.

The only options Libyans have is to fight themselves, perhaps with some help from the outside world. The US isn't going to get involved. Anytime the US does something or does nothing, we're either imperialists or selfish people who don't care about the rest of the world. Not too mention that we have a pansy in the white house that can barely bring himself to make a statement let alone do anything meaningful.

If we are going to go on the UN's record we can definitively say that they wont do anything. They did nothing as hundreds of thousands died in Sudan. There's no reason to believe they will do anything in regards to Libya other than make "strong statements", if even that. The Libyans are on their own.

#1380893 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-25 17:49:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Buddy42 wrote:

The only options Libyans have is to fight themselves, perhaps with some help from the outside world. The US isn't going to get involved. Anytime the US does something or does nothing, we're either imperialists or selfish people who don't care about the rest of the world. Not too mention that we have a pansy in the white house that can barely bring himself to make a statement let alone do anything meaningful

Yeah there is zero chance we get involved since the Iraq fiasco where we threw out a guy who actually used chemical weapons on protesters and yet we are the bad guys. The UN wont get involved since China and Russia will veto any attempt since Khaddafi is doing what they will do in the same circumstance and the Arabs will only get involved if they can pay someone else to fight for them. The most that can happen is arming the rebels to take on the loyalists so it would be somewhat of an even fight.

#1380928 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-25 19:12:52 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

don't be fooled by the title "supporters", whenever death is involved only those who seek freedom will stay by their word defending it with their lives/bodies/money .. whatever.

who the hell would support someone like that?! Sadly i understand Arabic, which is a virtue i'd say, unless you are listening to al-gaddafi of course. A mindless freak who don't even know what he is talking about anymore.

i'd give the revolution there another 3~5 days max, they'll get his family slaughtered as well i presume from what he's done so far. A great expectation that someone from his guards will end up killing him under the pressure of becoming a hero and saving his own "the guard's" neck from the coming angry mob.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-25 19:19:54

#1380935 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-25 19:40:18 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

Yeah there is zero chance we get involved since the Iraq fiasco where we threw out a guy who actually used chemical weapons on protesters and yet we are the bad guys.

Like I said we either do too much or not enough. When we intervene they don't want us too, and when we do nothing they want us to intervene. It's never good enough.

qbert95 wrote:

The UN wont get involved since China and Russia will veto any attempt since Khaddafi is doing what they will do in the same circumstance and the Arabs will only get involved if they can pay someone else to fight for them.

Even if the UN did get involved what could they do? It's an inept organization that has no real power. All they do is pass resolutions of condemnation and hire NGO's to hand out food. They're nothing more than a glorified international red cross organization.

The absolute most that can expected of them is to perhaps pass a resolution authorizing NATO to enforce a no-fly zone, and that's not going to stop the slaughter. But like you said even that is unlikely given the almost certain opposition from Russia and China.

qbert95 wrote:

The most that can happen is arming the rebels to take on the loyalists so it would be somewhat of an even fight.

Apparently, that has already begun.

Quote:

In parts of the country, the revolutionaries, as they call themselves, appear to have access to potentially large stores of weapons, including small arms and heavy artillery, automatic weapons smuggled from the Egyptian border and rocket-propelled grenades taken from army bases, like the Kabila in Benghazi.

Tawfik al-Shohiby, one of the rebels, said that in the early days of the revolt one of his relatives bought $75,000 in automatic weapons from arms dealers on the Egyptian border and distributed them to citizens’ groups in towns like Bayda.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/world … wanted=all

#1381047 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-26 04:41:02 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Can anyone tell me what this guys sign says? :-)

This image has been resized, click here to view the full-sized image.

#1381056 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-26 06:37:14 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

lol
it was an inside joke between the protesters in al tahrir square.

how it started:
The pro-mubarak media stated that the protesters were all there for money, each is getting 50 euros per day and meals from Kentucky fried chicken "KFC"

of course later, it was obvious that due to the current situations all fast food restaurants were closed and by no means such a rumor is to be declared TRUE, and it tuned to an inside joke.

the sign says:

Surprise, Now
"Kentucky Square" >> previously know as tahrir
presenting to you its famous meal/combo + a glass of hot water
+ swings of Othman ahmad othman "one of Egypt's biggest construction contractors" on the left entry
+ a wc where you have to stand in line to reach + an empty pepsi can
+ watching the season's best movie "Departure of the Bastard" all for free
just come tomorrow

it is a bad joke i'd say, translating it actually made it sound better than the original

, but it is a clear reply that standing there all day/night was not a matter of money/entertainment.

p.s:
translation was performed line to line

better jokes were asking for the meals coming without ketchup, always brought to them cold and finally calling foul/falafel/boksomat "all egyptian cheapest food" KFC

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-26 23:59:36

#1381164 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-26 16:30:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Like I said the dictator is gone but does that mean so is the dictatorship?

Egypt military attacks Tahrir sit-in, army apologises
http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsConte … logis.aspx

Quote:

The military, who had thus far been impartial or sympathetic to the protesters to topple Mubarak’s government, attacked protesters who aimed to topple the PM, Ahmed Shafiq’s government.

A couple of hundreds set up camp to spend the night on the small patch of grass in the centre of the famous square. Around 2am military police attacked with an aim to disperse and end the sit-in.

According to activists, the military used sticks to beat up the protestors and several have been severely injured. Several have been detained but were released after.

Anger towards the military expressed online mounted following the attacks and a call has been spreading for another gathering at Tahrir Square starting Saturday at 2pm.

Military uses force against Egypt’s Coptic monasteries, wounding many
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Military … 20869.html

Quote:

Egyptian soldiers attacked for the second time the Monastery of Saint Bishoy Alexandria in Wady el-Rayan, Fayoum, 110 km from Cairo. Two monks and six Coptic labourers were wounded. Four people were arrested, three monks and a Coptic lawyer who was visiting the monastery to investigate a similar incident the day before.

Monk Aksios Ava Bishoy told Nader Shoukry, of Free Copts, that the army stormed the monastery using five tanks, armoured vehicles and a bulldozer to demolish the fence built by the monastery last month to protect the building and its residents from the lawlessness that has prevailed in Egypt since the 25 January uprising. In fact, the monastery since that day has been attacked by common criminals who escaped from prisons.

#1381239 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-26 23:47:04 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

the videos are online

no injuries in both cases, some media propaganda, but nothing REAL happened injury speaking. And i know some of the ppl who were chased in el tahrir square, were laughing at the incident as the soldiers chasing them didn't know what to do after them being caught .. so they let them go with a verbal warning.

finally, the army announced its 22nd announcement apologizing for the tahrir incident as they were misinformed through the previous regime spys/intel/whatever.

about the church, the church was trying to build a fence surrounding its territory, and the army interfered to protect the land from being taken illegally.

On the church side, i don't know deep/inside details, but you gotta accept some are taking the revolution to their favor in a way or another and making sure of news nowadays is not as easy as before.

Small incidents everywhere are harder to confirm than a big incident somewhere.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-26 23:58:52

#1381242 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-26 23:52:31 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Thanks Demagh, much appreciated.

#1381257 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-27 01:29:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

about the church, the church was trying to build a fence surrounding its territory, and the army interfered to protect the land from being taken illegally.

Quote:

“We contacted state security and they said there was no police available for protection,” Fr Bemwa said. “We were put in touch with the military personnel who told us to protect ourselves until they reach us.”

From what I understand they built the fence to protect the church from criminals. I don't think they were trying to illegally take land.

They requested protection to which they where told, according to Father Bemwa, that they needed to protect themselves. Which is exactly what they did. Then the army came rolling in with tanks to tear down the only thing protecting the church.

Quote:

In fact, the monastery since that day has been attacked by common criminals who escaped from prisons.

#1381274 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-27 03:30:23 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

so, in order to protect myself, with no permit i can take land around me and make myself comfortable?! doesn't work that way ... specially with permanent structure materials, not a wired fence or something.

many stores were attacked, even houses, if you are not feeling safe just bring some payed special service "and these are present everywhere nowadays", but taking land "to protect myself" is not something permissible in this case.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-27 03:35:59

#1381303 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-27 10:47:37 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

hahahahahahaha some people can justify anything
TANKS and soldiers to stop someone from encrouching on someone else's land?
My brother-in-law has a land dispute with his neighbor here in Italy..I wonder if I can get a few friends from Aviano to role in with an Abrahms to help him sort it out :rolleyes:

#1381308 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-27 11:51:04 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

hahahahahahaha some people can justify anything
TANKS and soldiers to stop someone from encrouching on someone else's land?

that's the army's cars wherever they are present now, most Egyptians are taking photos of themselves and family with tanks everywhere, and i mean everywhere, 10 minutes from my home there is a street called Autostorad with not less than 40 tanks there ready to move in any direction if needed, when a tank is present at a church incident within the current situations you know of in Egypt,it is just a tank .. not a TANK

Quote:

My brother-in-law has a land dispute with his neighbor here in Italy..I wonder if I can get a few friends from Aviano to role in with an Abrahms to help him sort it out :rolleyes:

you need a revolution first and the army taking over the country control to be able to do so

oh, and by the way, police are still not active/fully present till this day, army is still the authority responsible for ppl's protection in street till this very moment

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-27 12:02:21

#1381327 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-27 13:37:26 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

My brother-in-law has a land dispute with his neighbor here in Italy..I wonder if I can get a few friends from Aviano to role in with an Abrahms to help him sort it out :rolleyes:

Works for Israel.

#1381337 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-27 14:52:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

few months ago, there was a heat wave, and cause allot of plants to dry faster, which caused vegtables to go bad while still on trees and in storage areas.
this lead to the price increase of tomatoes from 1~3 LE to 9~14 LE
the prices later decreased again, but not to their original price

according to someone in my family, the 25kg package of rice have increased from 35 LE to 92 LE from 2008 to 2010

when the minster of agriculture was asked about the prices of tomatoes sky rocketing in few months, he said that people should stop eating green salad beside food for a while

that reminded me of one of the French revolutions, when the queen said "If they can’t find bread, let them eat cake"

it was clear that it is time for either a serious full government reform, or else ..

(all numbers above might be not 100% accurate, just for reference)

there is a famous story in Egypt's culture, not sure if people here know it or not:

a man, his kid, and a donkey .. walking down the street
people said "look at the idiots, having a donkey and not using it"
the man rides the donkey, and let his kid walks, ..
people said "bad father, letting the poor kid walk while he is sitting"
the kid rides the donkey, and let his father walks, ..
people said "bad kid, letting the old guy walks while he is sitting"
both ride the donkey, ..
people said "poor donkey, how it is able to continue with all that weight, where is the animal rights!"
so they both step down and carry the donkey
people said "idiots"

now how does this relate to this story ... :hmmm:

it is the danger of not having a leader, and not having a fixed list of requirements, and only people dictates what we should do ..

all the demands of 25january has been met,
people not happy
all the new demands of 28 jan has been met,
people not happy
alot of more things have been met ,
people not happy

people said, remove mubarak and let omar seliman handle things, people trust him,
that happened, and people didnt agree
people said, we are the country of corporations, removing the leader will not affect it,
and now they are after the leaders of the coporations

people are drunk with power IMO ...
i hope the military does not do anything else, and make people wait for the next elections to elect the person that will do what the majority wants.

#1381353 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-27 15:49:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef wrote:

people are drunk with power IMO ...
i hope the military does not do anything else, and make people wait for the next elections to elect the person that will do what the majority wants.

ah the budding of liberalism is starting in Egypt where people believe they are in the right simply because they are louder than everyone else. They tried to pull that tactic off recently in the state of Wisconsin where the majority elected a governor who ran on balancing their budget and the loud mouths showed up trying to intimidate the process when their tax pay funded golden ticket bought by bribery, corruption, and collusion got targeted.

#1381432 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-27 19:09:48 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef wrote:

all the demands of 25january has been met,
people not happy
all the new demands of 28 jan has been met,
people not happy

these were met too late in unacceptable forms/speeches and it was when the opposition took some leadership in the revolution and prepared a list of 5~7 demands "according to whom you are listening to", that's since the 28th or 29th of January, mostly they are all common with some differences in details/steps

Quote:

alot of more things have been met ,
people not happy

not true

ppl at first wanted the change of the regime, which had no specific definition as the regime can be summarized in Mubarak and his family. When he changed the prime-minister he didn't bring up the topic of him or his son not entering the next elections. By then the opposition most famous demands were polished and planned.

1- removal of the regime and departure of Mubarak
2- disabling/canceling both parliaments
3- reconstruction of the constitution from the very beginning as it has been changed A LOT within the past 30 years
4- changing the whole ministry including the prime minister and forming a technocrat regime "meaning bringing experts within each field with a vice minister each to keep handling the country needs/whatever for a year MAX"
5- Canceling immediately the state of emergency and the emergency law releasing all non-proven criminals from prisons and releasing whoever was caught in the previous incidents as a protester.

1 has been achieved
2 was just achieved may be 10~12 days before now
3 was just finished 2 days ago, and the constitution is not permanent, will be changed again after electing the president.
4 has not been achieved yet, Ahmad Shafik is still one of the last regime's symbols and some of the current ministers as well, like Mahmoud Wagdy, Abul Ghait
5 don't get me started

all loud voices are revolving around these demands from day 3~4 in the revolution, the media is just trying to lower their voices everyday saying their demands were ALL met, which is bull.

Quote:

people said, remove mubarak and let omar seliman handle things, people trust him,
that happened, and people didnt agree

that never happened, on the contrary, when he elected omar solayman, ppl were divided, if he left and left omar should we agree on him?! or does OMAR symbolize the OLD regime as well? Also, do you really think that someone who thinks that WE as the people are not ready for democracy yet should rule us?!

I myself may agree with his statement in private, but to fall in a trap so easily in public will cause some disasters later on .. i honor his truthfulness, but i hate his stupidness.

Quote:

people said, we are the country of corporations, removing the leader will not affect it,
and now they are after the leaders of the coporations

i don't get this part, hence, i don't agree

Quote:

people are drunk with power IMO ...

nah, there is no power anymore, last friday they failed reaching a million protester in el-tahrir square.

Quote:

i hope the military does not do anything else, and make people wait for the next elections to elect the person that will do what the majority wants.

Don't worry, that's why the new constitution was agreed on to make the cycle go faster and remove the military within 4~6 months instead of 1~1.5 years.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-03-01 01:24:04

#1381616 by elrey7

(User) at 2011-02-28 11:59:02 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Looks like people in China also want freedom. Who is going to work for low wages when this freedom wave is over?

#1381635 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-28 13:54:15 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

Given the history of attacks on The Copts in Egypt I can't blame them for doing what they did. Given the current circumstances in Egypt I think it calls for extraordinary measure that wouldn't normally be taken if the security situation wasn't what it was. And no structure is permanent. I don't quite see how a chain linked fence would have sufficed in securing the church. So can't really blame them for doing it properly.

They requested protection from the army and it was denied. They then built a wall to protect it from "criminals". The report stated that the church was attacked after the army tore down the wall. So, apparently the army took down the only security they had protecting the church and then just left. Nice!

Edit: Here's a video of the ATTACK by the Egyptian army. I say attack as the video clearly shows this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeQ85q_7opc&

Also, when I first read the story and after reading how you said they were illegally stealing land I envisioned the church being in an urban area and possibly being obstructive. It clearly looks like in the video that the area is rural with no other building or roads in sight. From what I could tell the wall didn't obstruct anything other than unwanted "visitors".

#1381636 by VizlaN Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-28 13:54:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

elrey7 wrote:

Looks like people in China also want freedom. Who is going to work for low wages when this freedom wave is over?

Africans. (Somehow I doubt the Chinese government is going to go quietly tho)

Last edited by VizlaN at 2011-02-28 13:55:33

#1381670 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-28 16:47:26 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Yeah what about china guys?

Will there be a revolution? Can there be a revolution in China?

Their economy is growing extremely fast and their power/prestige is just growing, people are saying there is a wave of growing nationalism in china..maybe thats one of the reasons the communist party of china still maintains its tight grip around china? Are people there even willing to do these things? I mean they are probably gonna experience some pretty good gdp growth per capita..usually people are quiet if the middle class is growing..

What do you guys think about China?

In the 21st Century, how do you maintain an iron grip around your people? when travel and communications are so cheap and fast? A nation of almost 1,35 billion people..

Another question, what about Yemen? is president salehi(or whatever his name is) falling too?

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-28 16:50:18

#1381675 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-28 16:52:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

What do you guys think about China?

I think past experienced has shown the communist leadership will crush (with tanks) whatever protest that manages to get beyond the preliminary stages. I also think the general population would side with the government there since they actually prefer the strict communist style social order over having more freedoms.

#1381685 by Agent204 Donor

(Loud Mr.Miagi) at 2011-02-28 17:54:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@dodeliatcha,

I'm not sure about what China you've been following lately, but the government most certainly doesn't have the "iron grip" it used to have. They still have barriers to break, that I'm not denying, but China has really come a long way since the totalitarian regime that existed not too long ago.

The thing about China seems to be that you can say whatever you want, as long as you don't criticize the national party, where as it used to be no matter what you said, as long as it's not in line with what the party wants you to think, you're in the jail the next day.

Honestly, I'm not sure if China would be ready for a full blown democracy regardless.

#1381695 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-28 18:55:44 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Agent204 wrote:

yeah well I didnt mean exacrtly iron grip, but they still have a tight grip.

But yeah you're right in that sense, I agree with you completely.

As for qbert95, I know the tianmen square massacre and all that, but would they acually do it again? That was two decades ago. I think that many people in China prefer the commmunist party because they are acually making the country stronger and keeping the economy in check. But many economists and "social scientists" if thats what you call them say that while chinas power will grow, they will face daunting tasks in the future, that may cause the nation to destabalize significantly.

EDIT : tbh, wasnt mubaraks regime considered one of the most stable in the middle east? nobody could have imagined it ever happening.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-28 19:18:10

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