Protests in The ME and Africa

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(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-20 18:14:38 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

yeah..should we create a new thread? or is this enough for libya,bahrain,yemen and iran? I think we should create a new one..dont know if we are allowed though

no need..just changed the title of the original thread to reflect unrest in the Middle East and Africa.

#1379655 by Germs Donor

(Paulo DiCanio's Disciple) at 2011-02-20 19:35:30 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

It's starting to look like Mubarek wasn't really such a bad guy after all.Gadaffi and the Bahranian royal family seem far happier to kill as many of their own people as it takes to quell the protests.

I'm watching the BBC news which is reporting people in Libya being fired on by heavy machine guns and snipers!

#1379665 by Melrose86 (User) at 2011-02-20 20:04:33 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

looks like some of the generals in the libyan army and joining the protesters

#1379762 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-21 12:04:58 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Germs wrote:

Mubarak was a really bad guy. If it was up to him, he would have killed more. But the army in egypt is proffesional and revered by the egyptian people and they are powerful. They didnt want to hurt anyone on the streets. The army in libya has shot alot of people. While in Egypt the army refused to hit the protesters..it had nothing to do with mubarak. The decision came from the supreme council of the armed forces..

This has nothing to do with how bad mubarak was, he used the police not the army, and the police killed alot of people too.

And secondly, in egypt you had alot of media etc..in libya they have a very closed country, barely any internet or media. No foreign press have been allowed to get in..before and during the protests. So they have more "freeedom" to kill people.

That the egyptian army did not kill egyptian citizens was because it was a professional and revered army that recruited from the poor people in egypt. Thats why

Mubarak had nothing to do with that decision. ^^ But yeah, Ghaddafi is an asshole and he has been in power for 41 years and promoted islamic extremism..so yeah..lets hope he goes..

but libya is difficult, they are alot of powerful tribes fighting

I think

#1379833 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-21 16:57:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

well as of now until they actually hold elections the military did nothing in Egypt because now they have all the power for themselves without having to fire a single shot.

as for libya its going to get bloody because from what Ive read the country is divided up between tribes so they fracture very easily.

#1379836 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-21 17:11:48 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

Germs wrote:

I think

Mubarak was put into to power by that same military you speak so highly of. They sat by for 30 years and did nothing as the state's security services slaughtered and tortured it's "people". And you're incredibly ignorant if you believe the military took no part in keeping the regime in power for so long. That means torturing and killing dissidents, but we'll just pretend that that's not the case and say it was all the police. Now, Mubarak is gone and the military that put him into power and allowed him to stay in power, until it was no longer feasible, is now in control. Long Live The Egyptian Military!

#1379837 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-21 17:13:21 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Reports are now coming out that Gadhafi has fled to Venezuela!

#1379866 by unknown[417104] at 2011-02-21 18:57:49 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Fighter jets just started to BOMB protestors.

Also, two fighter jets and two military helicopters landed in Malta after defecting, refusing to bomb their own people

#1379940 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-21 23:19:00 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

watching the AJE feed and its laughable how they keep chirping for the US to do something. Do they forget how they reacted when we did something in Iraq to topple a madman who was infinitely worst than Kadhafi?

#1379943 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-21 23:32:53 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Buddy42 wrote:

dodeliatcha wrote:

Germs wrote:

I think

Since Mubarak was an Air Chief Marshal turned vice president under sadat he wasnt "put" into power. He put himself into power together with his advisers and loyalists. He was practicaly the most revered air force officer they ever had.....back then atleast. because of his relative preformance in the 1973 Israel war.... I didnt say that the egyptian military hadnt taken part in keeping the government in place. But there is a REASON why they are loved more then the police.

What YOU said however. Was : ""It's starting to look like Mubarek wasn't really such a bad guy after all.Gadaffi and the Bahranian royal family seem far happier to kill as many of their own people as it takes to quell the protests.""" That couldnt be further from the truth. But yeah the ones that you are talking about are really bad too. Especially Ghaddafi, he is probably worse than mubarak..he is a monster,

BUT

And I'm telling you right now, it's obvious that Mubarak tried to quell the protestsers in Egypt though the use of force, however the egyptian military refused to use violence. He was then removed in a quiet coup.. so its really stupid to say that mubarak wasn't "really such a bad guy after all", he was a monster to his own people. And he had NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the fact that the military did not use force. Because the police was more loyal to him and his party, and they used force untill they couldn't anymore.

It has been made clear several times that mubarak repeaditly tried to use the military as a supressive force in the protests but they refused. So my point is that mubarak is still the bad guy.

We can argue all day how mubarak was put in power or how bad he has. or how bad the military is... But I think most people will agree with me that mubarak himself had nothing to do with the fact that the military wasnt using any force in the protests.

Last edited by dodeliatcha at 2011-02-21 23:56:41

#1379954 by unknown[293451] at 2011-02-22 01:37:48 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

dodeliatcha wrote:

What YOU said however. Was : ""It's starting to look like Mubarek wasn't really such a bad guy after all.Gadaffi and the Bahranian royal family seem far happier to kill as many of their own people as it takes to quell the protests.""" That couldnt be further from the truth. But yeah the ones that you are talking about are really bad too. Especially Ghaddafi, he is probably worse than mubarak..he is a monster,

Where did I say such a thing? Never would I say Mubarak wasn't that bad. I was just pointing out that the same power structure that maintained Mubarak's dictatorship is still in place. The dictator is gone but does that mean so is the dictatorship?

#1379962 by warduke Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-22 03:07:35 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

um yes. Cause now the country is under temporary military rule till the dust settles and folks figure out where to go from here. It is seriously doubtful that the military plans to maintain power indefinitely. You shouldn't be trying to make enemies out of those who are considered beloved by it's citizens.

#1379985 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-22 10:29:08 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Aha I apologize to you then, I mistook you for Germs. He was the one who wrote it, I responded to his post and you responded to mine ^^ So I thought you were him..

But anyways the argument still stands for Germs and that the military is in fact better than the police/intelligence services.

#1379988 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-22 10:42:24 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

qbert95 wrote:

Reports are now coming out that Gadhafi has fled to Venezuela!

nope

Quote:

The longest serving Arab leader appeared briefly on TV to dispel rumors that he had fled. Sitting in a car in front of what appeared to be his residence and holding an umbrella out of the passenger side door, he told an interviewer that he had wanted to go to the capital's Green Square to talk to his supporters, but the rain stopped him.

"I am here to show that I am in Tripoli and not in Venezuela. Don't believe those misleading dog stations," Gadhafi said, referring to the media reports that he had left the country. The video clip and comments lasted less than a minute � unusual for the mercurial leader, who is known for rambling speeches that often last hours.

LOL the rain stopped him?
Must be like when he sailed out and couldn't find the 7th fleet back in the 80's :lol:

What a total douchebag.

#1380503 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-24 11:31:40 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

just a video i liked, wanted to share with you guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaxepUuCFFM

prolly the greatest summary for the Egyptian revolution, some pictures in the beginning might be unknown to you guys, these were some of the most famous previous regime's victims.

#1380525 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-24 13:04:43 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

Very well done video

Although i highly doubt that the police made 'organized' crimes against the people, many are from regular egyption families like the rest, and many of them are having the same problems the average egyption has, ... either way, the ongoing investigation should reveal the truth

According to some draft calculation of tahrir square area using google maps, and assuming that a single person takes 0.5x0.5m to be able to stand and maybe move his arms a bit, then the tahrir square can handle 200~400k, assuming that the protesters extends to abd-emonem-riad square, and the beginnings of streets and bridges leading to tahrir square, then the number can go as high as 600~900k , 2 million in tahrir square is physically impossible.

It is still a big number though, but not 2million ..

Egypt sistuation right now from my point of view:

I Really Really hope that people calm down now, and wait for the next election, specially the parliament, since it is what is supposed to make changes in the government, and do changes in the constitution, which allot of people asking for

I also hope that people understand the meaning of parliament, in previous elections, many of the masses voted for whoever would give them money or cell phones, or promise to find them jobs or find them a cheap place to live, allot of people do not comprehend the their main job is changing the law and the constitution.

With 30% illiterate, and 40% uneducated, 80% poor, and with religious slangs used to advertise few people, and in reality, any election don't result in the 'better' candidate, but the one who can 'speak' better in public events. ....... the outcome of such an election can not be predicted.

A new oppressive and dictator system is being slowly and strongly built, anybody go as far as saying that "I dont belive mubarak was behind those bad things" or "I respect the old guy for the time he served in the millitary and risking his life for out country" or "enough protests, lets get stable, and wait for elections" or any similar, are considered a trader, or called "follow the NDP", and are asked to leave their job and go some place else, this is specially noticeable in between cinema people, artists, football players ,football coaches, news paper heads, news paper writers, ...... etc. , and are blocked from being heard.
Blacklists of those people are being created including their names.
Which is making allot of people scared to say their opinion, and just following whatever being said without thinking them for themselves.
People are asking for the complete removal of the "National Democratic" political party from egypt's political life, and people who are calling for inside cleaning of the NDP are not welcomed too.

I think that the effort needed to turn from chaos to stable, is going to be much more than the effort that was needed to start the revolution, it is not impossible, but people need to be able to listen to the other opinion, even if they don't like it or even respect it, to reach a middle ground, which doesn't necessarily satisfy everyone.

Israel saying that the passing of Iranian warships through suez canal is alarming to them, is in itself alarming to me, since military warships are always allowed to pass through the suez canal all the time according to international agreements, that only forbids the passing of warships of some countries IF egypt is at war with those countries, and egypt is not at war with iran ATM.

#1380541 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-24 14:01:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef wrote:

post

discussing this is no longer interesting/old, whatever your point of view was, it was clear through all your previous posts .. and mine as well.

even the possibilities for us now, were all discussed within the period from 11 to 20 of this month, discussing it longer brings no meaning/new ideas.

My point, let's not re-fight, and keep moving on, the video was nice, it was suitable for the serious chat thread "from my point of view", was effective, was short, was emotional.

Our role now is to do what we do best, each in his field/work, while of course staying put/focused as the trials to build/maintain a similar regime to the one that has fallen are being processed, get in shape as walking to el tahrir square from nasr city or even abbaseya/maadi/mokattam/whatever requires some stamina .. and we might strongly need to go there again .. sooner than expected.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-24 23:20:59

#1380612 by lol2k345 Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-24 18:30:11 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Sorry about the simple question, but what are are they wanting to achieve? Are they pro western life style, or something similar, or just for another dictator treating them like shit in a couple of years?

#1380671 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-24 22:02:14 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

lol2k345 wrote:

a quick answer to the question will be democracy + freedom of speech, specially in the political field/press/newspapers + some equilibrium/similar chances in all fields

a more detailed one will discuss general health plans, better salaries, lowering prices, higher dignity for the Egyptian in Egypt, stop supporting Israel gas export prices and start support egyptian gas prices .. etc, bring billions to the ppl instead of bringing trillions to the ones in charge .. you know .. classic revolution scenarios/demands.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-24 22:02:48

#1380699 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-24 23:41:39 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

lol2k345 wrote:

those are great ideals to strive for.
But how do you possibly plan to achieve them? At the risk of sounding stupid but how can those be truely implemented in a country where more than 90% of the population follow Islam?
How is Egypt going to balance the two? Or will be be some sort of Hybrid like "chinese commu-aptialism"?

#1380710 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-25 00:32:37 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@verybadguy

couldn't have stated it better myself, the hybrid part i mean

funny thing, i was trying to explain that in my previous post in like 7 more lines which i deleted before posting as i thought to myself "no body asked on how, why would i be so informative?!" .. but you kinda summarized the idea, Turkey is a good example of what we are looking for as "NEW EGYPT" in the coming stage, of course turkey itself is still a work in progress, but we are starting now from where they started years ago hoping a faster development to catch up somehow.

and it is possible in Egypt here, as most/all muslims are Sunna who don't believe in "welayet al fakeeh", meaning the "Imam" stuff you hear a lot from shi'a, meaning the head of al-azhar/any religious group, even if it was the majority isn't necessarily the leader/president of the country and not even related to the issue of RULING the country.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-25 02:52:14

#1380825 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-25 13:46:09 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Interesting editorial from Arab News site:

"The Arab League should authorize military intervention to stop the killing

THE people of Libya are under attack and need protection. Now. Not in a few weeks� time. By then countless thousands could be dead.

Normally the world looks to the UN to provide the means in such circumstances. But the UN has shown itself divided and ineffectual over Libya. It is not capable of helping � even though it has a unique relationship with the country. Libya is the UN�s baby. It was the first and only state created by it. But even if the UN does decide on sanctions and a no-fly zone, they will not stop the killing. A no-fly zone did not protect the inhabitants of northern and southern Iraq from Saddam Hussein�s henchmen. It is not going to protect the people of eastern Libya from Qaddafi�s. The people of Libya need action now. They need armed protection. That means military intervention.

That has to come, can only come, from other Arab states.

..."

source: http://arabnews.com/opinion/editorial/article283342.ece

edited

Last edited by hOG at 2011-02-25 16:26:21

#1380841 by unknown[397565] at 2011-02-25 14:37:28 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

that's just what some guy thinks and not actual information, who cares :whatever:

#1380852 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-25 15:07:00 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

malavoglia wrote:

that's just what some guy thinks and not actual information, who cares :whatever:

Yeah. Serious chat is not full of opinions.

#1380869 by unknown[397565] at 2011-02-25 16:19:53 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hOG wrote:

malavoglia wrote:

that's just what some guy thinks and not actual information, who cares :whatever:

Yeah. Serious chat is not full of opinions.

yes, but I wouldn't call our posts "articles", would you...

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