Protests in The ME and Africa

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#1377046 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-11 21:52:50 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

And should it happen she'll likely suffer a similar historical fate. You need to be a.. realist here ;o)

Sounds funny coming from a religious guy to an atheist

But yeah, baby steps, baby steps.
My biggest fear is that the muslim brotherhood starts to kill the more liberal and pro secular democratic strong men before the elections or after it if the more open minded people win the elections.
Or that they can somehow get the elections, since currently they are the most organized political group in egypt.

#1377055 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-11 22:04:45 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hmhef wrote:

el baradie, .. is a joke, go read loads of groups on facebook opposing to him, it sums up what i want to say pretty nicely.
thankfully, he announced that he is not going to run.

well, i've been reading his announcements, predictions in the fall of this regime and his semi-prediction about the citizen's inevitable clash with the regime .. i respect this man. Problem is, he can't talk fluently ... a lot of a .. a a.. ..a aa. .. .. between his words.

Of course he was one of the preys of the previous regimes, THEY said his muslim daughter married a christian english man "which is prohibited in islam for women to marry other religions", THEY photoshopped her face on a slutty bikini or something and said "how can someone not able to cover his daughter is gonna cover our country needs" and bullshit like that .. which ruined his personal image a lot

THEY said he contributed in starting the war on IRAQ by giving false reports, which was proven wrong again through his recorded announcements then .. which questioned his loyalty and ethics

Of course for a regular news reader, it was all lies and nothing to care about, and now the regime is gone, it is easy for him to clarify his appearance and present himself as a real option for the egyptian ppl to represent them

Quote:

he lived outside egypt more than he lived inside, and he doesnt have any idea about our internal problems.
all the ideals he talk about sounds good on paper, but wont be able to put anything in the real world
kinda old; 68yo, meaning in six years will be 74.

i find that part where you are comparing how long he lived in egypt in a time where a revolution started over the facebook is utterly silly.
What's next? choosing based on the millage done per year for the next president's candidates inside of Egypt?!

You don't have to be among the ppl to feel their pain, and that's what Wael Ghonaim said when he mentioned his life style with 45k US dollars monthly payment + villa + swimming pool in Dubai .. he started the revolution 2.0 >> silly, but he calls it that and i respect him .. so ...

In my book, contributing, trying, getting closer to the ppl to win them is not easy .. and he "el baradie" has gone through this and suffered greatly with the old regime through this past year in Egypt.

his ideals, they sound good on paper, and have been put to the test several times in the past year with no recognized failure.

EDITED:added
Oh, and if i recall correctly, when ppl went out for the first time wanting for the regime to fall, one man after the incidents of the 28th of January ... the voice of the ppl suddenly changed to .. we want him to LEAVE!!!

My guess, El baradie was the first to announce that .. can't say for sure if he was the first, but his image comes to mind and his voice while i was watching the incidents in my home when the question was asked .. what do these ppl want.

If so, and if marketed well in the next campaign .. El Baradie is the president for sure.
EDITED:added

Quote:

amr mousa, .. i hope, but it is unlikely because he is too old (74yo),

the one man with popularity among old educated, young ignorant, political activists, rich and poor ... all over Egypt. His opinions in the past, semi-conflicting announcements with mubarak long ago when he was egyptian's minister of "department" (don't know what it is called in english), his semi-religious manners with no serious/stupid religious announcements are all combined to serve him and his image well in a country he has been serving politically for as long as i can remember. Probably the strongest candidate in the next election, but i am confused myself between voting to him or el baradie

Quote:

omar solayman .. is not diplomatic enough, although very honest and direct, which is rare in politicians, and might cause him alot of opposition (like saying "democracy is conditional") ,
i trust him to make the right decision regarding international affairs,
and i trust him to choose the right people for internal affairs.
also 74yo now :/

totally agree with you, though i hate his views on religious parties in egypt .. but he was a great choice for egypt in the coming election .. sadly he was burnt when the regime elected him as vice president for 10 days to ruin his remaining days in this world.

@sniper
never heard of those, and still electing a female as president is something we need the US to see doing first for us to follow .. may be in 30 ~ 50 years or something

EDITED part above

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-11 22:16:39

#1377059 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-11 22:10:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@sniper

Well, we both know you are not really an atheist, you need to come out of that closet :smirk:

Yup, fundamentalism is *our* biggest concern. And the region work well together. We saw how it begun in Tunisia in january, then the protest parties of the opposition went on the streets in Eqypt and now in febrary Mubarak finally quit. Before both of these events we had student uprisings in Iran. Hopefully it will inspire others in other places.. I can think of countries deserving their Hershey bar.. like Iran for example.

Last edited by hOG at 2011-02-11 22:11:36

#1377063 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-11 22:15:50 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

hOG wrote:

@sniper

Well, we both know you are not really an atheist, you need to come out of that closet :smirk:

Actually its looks like Bush's vision of democracy spreading in the Middle East was right!!

#1377065 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-11 22:18:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

anyone got a link to obama's speech for today?!

found only arabic results "damn my ip" till now all of them were dubbed badly, want to hear the real deal .. waiting for your link if you don't mind

thanks

#1377068 by sniperfin (Camo admin) at 2011-02-11 22:25:32 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Quote:

Actually its looks like Bush's vision of democracy spreading in the Middle East was right!!

Yeah, how the things are now going in middle-east and muslim countries it looks like irak and afganistan are going to be the only countries left without democracy, the two places which had something to do with bush, so I wouldn't put bush into this equation.

Last edited by sniperfin at 2011-02-11 22:26:55

#1377072 by slitt3r90 (Power User) at 2011-02-11 22:42:38 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryW_zDi4 … r_embedded

#1377078 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-02-11 23:04:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Not for me to say how other countries should do things...but pure democracy is a path to ruin.

The USA is not a democracy....it is a republic and has democratic elected "servents".
The press here (the non DNC controled press) in the US is calling what has happened the areas "Tea Party".
I don't know about that as the first Tea Party in our revolution was for revolt/freedom from taxs,our current Tea Party movement is not to -remove- a government but to return our government to ONLY it's power under the US Constitution.

Egypt may be out of what most of the population feels is a bad government...but what now is the real question.

EDIT:

Quote:

anyone got a link to obama's speech for today?!

Most people in my country don't care what that fool has to say.
As a leader he is compleatly inept and when it comes to international dealings most (countries and people here) think he is a fool.
It might be best to -not- pay any attention to what he has to say on this subject.

Last edited by Timex at 2011-02-11 23:11:16

#1377082 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-11 23:23:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

some ppl just quoted somethings of his speech on their facebook account and said something like "speechless, how wonderful .. etc" but i found out it was nothing really, meh ..

"of course Arabic speeches currently are more effective and my ears are listening to words that can replace music"

so, may be for someone who is not living through what we are living through today his speech was great .. for me it was ... meh

that's for the link btw, gratz Egyptians of TB

EDITED:
my expectations for the coming regime, it can't be called democratic by any means if i know the Egyptian ppl right. May be something as a transitional government will be nice for the time being to see what the ppl will REALLY do in a regime with more freedom in it than the previous one and decide for sure what's the ppl's WILL.

Last edited by demagh at 2011-02-11 23:30:01

#1377112 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-12 01:25:39 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

Actually its looks like Bush's vision of democracy spreading in the Middle East was right!!

still trying to understand how a military take over constitutes "democracy"

#1377146 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-12 11:11:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

still trying to understand how a military take over constitutes "democracy"

it doesn't so, they are just saving/holding the country for the ppl for no more than 2 months till the new constitution is constructed and a president is elected.

see military announcement number 3, if you have these translated on your news, you'll get the gesture of what i am trying to say

#1377172 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-12 13:17:00 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

On albaradie:

Mubarak refused to send any egyption troops in multinational forces that occupied iraq, like many european countries did, el baradie will

Mubarak refused to let USA/multinational forces to have any bases on egypt soil, like qatar/saudi, elbaradie will

El baradie 'feelings' about the egyption pain will not help him know what to do with alot of inside issues.

things to take note of:

- many many poeple while leaving tahrir square yesterday, when asked by news channels, they said that they will wait for a change, and if nothing happened they will be back, and considering that not all want the same thing, and the majority wants solving economical problems, and those could take years to fix, ... i hope it goes well the next few months.

- i saw pretests TODAY (2002-02-12) demanding some salary increase.

- do NOT exagrate the number of people that were in tahrir square like 'some' news channels did, compare them in your head to cairo stadium, knowing that cairo stadium maximum capacity is 80,000 , could be 100,000 if people sit on the stairs everywhere between seats.

- many people i know personally went to tahrir square to take pictures, and to see whats going on there, and see what the 'millions' wants.

- the '2 months' that you think is enough, is not enough considering the things that needs to be done, including the return of the police to the streets, and fixing the constitution, thinking that a brand new contitution could be done in less than 2~10 years, then you are living in a dream world, fixing the current constitution with edited stuff is also something that will not be done over night, considering that the they said that there will be small election to get people agreement on those fixes

Last edited by hmhef at 2011-02-12 13:19:32

#1377174 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-12 13:33:10 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Congratulations guys. IMO yesterday was a great day for freedom, and not just for egypt. You guys showed dictators everywhere that the people wont put up with being taken advantage of. I hope the house of saud and others are paying attention. Great job.

#1377175 by hOG (Crusader Mod) at 2011-02-12 13:35:54 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

sniperfin wrote:

Quote:

Actually its looks like Bush's vision of democracy spreading in the Middle East was right!!

still trying to understand how a military take over constitutes "democracy"

Yes, and understand of course they have been in power since 1975.. what one can hope is that the West doesn't loose interest in Egypt AND that the secret police doesn't think of putting up a candidate a la Mubarak. Obama held that speech in Cairo 1� ago, lets hope he has not forgotten it, come april+.

#1377190 by unknown[397565] at 2011-02-12 14:10:25 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Timex wrote:

The press here (the non DNC controled press) in the US is calling what has happened the areas "Tea Party".
I don't know about that as the first Tea Party in our revolution was for revolt/freedom from taxs,our current Tea Party movement is not to -remove- a government but to return our government to ONLY it's power under the US Constitution.

erm

glad that Mubarak left, but now make sure you don't elect some puppet govern or something, otherwise the revolt would be a waste of time

#1377238 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-12 15:20:19 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

it doesn't so, they are just saving/holding the country for the ppl for no more than 2 months till the new constitution is constructed and a president is elected.

yeah..like they did last time a leader of Egypt was "removed" from power? I might just be being cynical. But as I said he has sat in power for 30 years while the Military cowtowed, watched and did nothing. If they were truely fed up with Mubarek they would have acted a long time ago. More likely they saw which way the wind was blowing and took action to avert bloodshed. But I have serious doubts whether or not they are going to let their grip on power go so easily.

Either they will manipulate the situation to their favour or make sure their candidate is elected. They are in many ways simliar to the Military and how they held control over Turkey for years and years behind the scenes.

@Malavoglia...mind which forum you are posting in.

Last edited by VeryBadGuy at 2011-02-12 15:21:20

#1377350 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-12 22:08:42 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

@VBG
well, it is different now in Egypt, the military is a symbol for the old regime still and ppl won't accept such action/announcement, there is a 4th military announcement that would let you get the image clearer.

#1377354 by VeryBadGuy Donor

(Mad Ultra Mod) at 2011-02-12 22:25:08 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

I don't need a clearer image. I know that they can tell you whatever they want to tell you. But they are still men and men who were for 30 years loyal to Mubarek.

While I admit there is the possible chance that they will hold power until a democratically elected president is put into place. But what happens if they don't like or trust this man? Do you have faith in people who ignored the plight of the people for 30 years to suddenly accept their decisions? Personally until proven wrong I see the Military putting another general in temporary power (perhaps another Air Force General), then making some half hearted offers towards reform and the only thing that will change is the poster boy of the regime.

Can we talk about recent overthrows in the Middle East and what they resulted in?
Lets look at Iran...revolution...result? Theocratic state with ImInAJihad running the country with an iron fist...Palestine...voters voted and now who is in charge? Hamas!
Algeria? Military overthrow in the form of a Military coup...Lebanon? Now has Hezbollah. Personally I hope I am wrong but I fear the odds are stacked against any country trying to overthrow a government and elect a new one.

Remember...better the evil that you know than the one that you don't.
Mubarek was a sonofabitch for sure, he did a lot of shady and illegal things and I have no doubt people were tortured and even murdered under his watch. But as bad as that was...the alternative could always be worse.

#1377367 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-12 22:49:20 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

If I remember correctly there was much celebration in Iran as they expected a peoples representative to take power, six weeks later they were a theocracy. Not to say history will repeat itself, but it is certainly a possibility.

Aside from that, how in the world is Mubarak worth 70 billion? Lots of info out there about his wealth, but not many straight answers as to how he got that way.

#1377368 by demagh (User) at 2011-02-12 22:50:47 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

it is really hard to explain the Egyptian idea regarding the army, but bear with me.

The ARMY in the past 30 years was ... margined "is that a word?" in the Egyptian internal affairs. When it first came along into the streets it was feared, it was .. cautioned .. but later on through many reported news "most of them were never confirmed" holding the gesture of the president ordering the ARMY to change its strategy dealing with the protesters "the news weren't clear on that part", but the ARMY didn't change at all. Sure, he was one of them one day, they honored him, but they also honored the ppl's silence.

15 of the army's members "not soldier, not critical positions also" returned their armory and joined the protesters in many places before the final announcement "when he was gone", i think that's to exclude themselves from being put to a test where it is obligatory to shoot their families and friends, others stayed only because they think that will never happen, and i can guess the numbers from the army joining the protesters will intensively increase if the orders were different from what they were.

We see it, that the army wasn't protecting him through his regime "it wasn't all bad btw, it started to fall since 1994~1995, when his sons started taking over" the internal affairs ministry was.

Anyway, both possibilities can be true, but i am just trying to say, the army present today is not that was present 1952, the minds are different, the demands aren't the same, the idea for another military personnel to drive the wheel is not anymore acceptable, thanks to Mubarak .. i guess.

There is an Egyptian saying,"News of today can be bought, tomorrow it will be known for free"
let's just wait ... and see.

#1377370 by Timex (Power User) at 2011-02-12 23:04:27 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

demagh wrote:

There is an Egyptian saying,"News of today can be bought, tomorrow it will be known for free"...

That is a wise saying.
I like it.

#1377373 by qbert95 (Power User) at 2011-02-12 23:16:16 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

mbodnar wrote:

Aside from that, how in the world is Mubarak worth 70 billion? Lots of info out there about his wealth, but not many straight answers as to how he got that way.

the US industrial military complex. They lobby (bribe) senators to write bills providing foreign aid to Egypt with the condition that Egypt spend +75% of that aid buying military hardware from them. They than kick back a few billion of that money back to Mubarak so everyone walks away rich off the backs of the US taxpayers. As Ron Paul aptly states; �Foreign aid is taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries�

Hell if anything the Swiss needs to send that frozen money of his back to the US where it belongs.

Last edited by qbert95 at 2011-02-12 23:18:52

#1377379 by mbodnar (Airborne Mod) at 2011-02-12 23:46:23 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Incredible.

#1377381 by hmhef Donor

(VIP) at 2011-02-12 23:50:23 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

VeryBadGuy wrote:

Can we talk about recent overthrows in the Middle East and what they resulted in?
Lets look at Iran...revolution...result? Theocratic state with ImInAJihad running the country with an iron fist...Palestine...voters voted and now who is in charge? Hamas!
Algeria? Military overthrow in the form of a Military coup...Lebanon? Now has Hezbollah. Personally I hope I am wrong but I fear the odds are stacked against any country trying to overthrow a government and elect a new one.

Remember...better the evil that you know than the one that you don't.
Mubarek was a sonofabitch for sure, he did a lot of shady and illegal things and I have no doubt people were tortured and even murdered under his watch. But as bad as that was...the alternative could always be worse.

That is my main fear.

I also fear people dividing on how are the millitary handling things, if they are handling it too much, or not handling it enough.

The possibilites you have mentioned are also not that improbable, specially with a revolution that has no leader, and right now many political forces trying to take leadership of it.

IMO, mubarak was not that bad, the people under him were the bad ones like his son Gamal's friends, and some people in his political party, .. Mubarak weakened the last 5 years, and left loads of internal things to them.

EDIT:
also it is obvious that all political opposition forces, including what was illeagal like "muslim brotherhood" will gain some strength, .. (wael ghoneim, 1 of the main revolution starters, requested the removal of all laws controling creation of political parties)

Last edited by hmhef at 2011-02-12 23:53:59

#1378140 by dodeliatcha (User) at 2011-02-15 16:50:55 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

any update from egypt? how is the outlook for jobs for the egyptians

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