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#1374228 by DjStorm (Power User) at 2011-02-02 11:43:04 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Thanks for the reply, I actually gave up. Buggy server, very low population and low tech game, I prefer TBC a lot more as well but from what I hear TBC servers are even more buggy. I`ll pass your insights to my mate who rolled a priest, I rolled a warrior eventually but only got to ~18.

#1374896 by duuuh (User) at 2011-02-04 14:52:12 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

my main is an enchanter and a friend of mine occasionally sends me some greenies to disenchant. one time he sent me (among other greenies) a Two-Hand Sword that requires level 77 to equip and has ilvl272.

i'm leveling a death knight and hit level 77 yesterday, man that swords pwns. it's like a ICC25 HC quality WEAPON in level 77. =D btw, when I try to link the sword in guild or where-ever, it just shows up as plain text - item has been removed from the game ^^ isn't dropping any more in cata, but ones who have it, have it. ^^

#1376414 by gullf1sk (Power User) at 2011-02-09 18:34:29 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Ah man Blizzard made heroics completely frictionless.
I hate bad players so much it makes my skin hurt.

Last edited by gullf1sk at 2011-02-09 18:34:38

#1376520 by Yinchie Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-09 23:01:19 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

gullf1sk wrote:

Ah man Blizzard made heroics completely frictionless.
I hate bad players so much it makes my skin hurt.

*thumbs up*

Which is why I stopped playing wow recently - 3rd time I quit and this will be the last, never again going back to WoW unless they ban all the bad players or crank up the difficulty.
Heroics for example were perfectly fine and fun to do at release, managed to do them all before any nerfs. (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/b … #168:a4844)

Moving on to Rift

Last edited by Yinchie at 2011-02-09 23:03:19

#1376628 by Viryz Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-10 12:13:10 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Yinchie wrote:

gullf1sk wrote:

Ah man Blizzard made heroics completely frictionless.
I hate bad players so much it makes my skin hurt.

Can't believe so many people are qq'ing about heroics getting nerfed, its always been like that, on every expansion.

If you want more difficulty, go heroic 25 mans, 5 man achievements or something.

God, I mean, you can adjust the difficulty yourself.

#1376629 by DjStorm (Power User) at 2011-02-10 12:19:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Its easier to whine.

#1376651 by Yinchie Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-10 14:17:03 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Viryz wrote:

Yinchie wrote:

gullf1sk wrote:

Ah man Blizzard made heroics completely frictionless.
I hate bad players so much it makes my skin hurt.

True but thing is, majority of the people these days are bad players, even if they call themself hardcore simply because they play a lot and I assume most players started with Wrath of the Lich King where I started from Vanilla.
Getting to do heroic 10 or even 25 man is impossible with bad players in the group.
Also heroic 25 man is easier than heroic 10 mans btw hence most world first kills were done on 25 man, you can even ask them - some even admitted it in interviews.

People like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZXNMs8D-Ow (posted 3 weeks ago) make wow a bad game.

5 man achievements are a joke

Last edited by Yinchie at 2011-02-10 14:20:44

#1376710 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 17:35:34 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Yinchie wrote:

If you are such a good player, why don't you get a good guild?

There's nothing to whine about. Bad people whine about everything being bad, because they are bad.

Yinchie wrote:

Also heroic 25 man is easier than heroic 10 mans btw hence most world first kills were done on 25 man, you can even ask them - some even admitted it in interviews.

So very very wrong. Heroic 25man is harder, that is why it's the only thing that actually counts. All guilds go 25man because being a 10man world ranked guild is pointless.
Guild killed a few bosses at the start of the race on 10man just to get the upper hand on world rankings and because it's so much easier.

Ensidia killed Al'Akir in 10man because it was so impossible in 25man, they wanted the upperhand on paragon. Then paragon then killed it on 25man and ensidias little 10man kill is history.

There were lots of 10man kills in the start of the race from all top world guilds, that is because it was easier and everyone wanted to "whore" points to klimb the world ratings ladder.

Now people who want to klimb the world rankings don't even try 10man because "it's 10man".

#1376744 by Yinchie Donor

(Power User) at 2011-02-10 19:20:09 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Good guilds are rare to find since most guilds these days are far to casual and only raid 2-3 days in the week.
Also I am not available everyday anymore as in, missing 1 whole week in a month.
So I am semi-hardcore, as in - i am available anything when I am free and i can raid for hours without getting demotivated by wipes EVER (people don't know what real progress wiping is these days...) and got the skills

And good guilds are usually full - and usually there is only 1-2 good raiding guilds per server/side.

If you are thinking I am a bad player because i write bad things about the game? Than sorry, you obviously do not know me as a long term hardcore wow raider.
Just my lifestyle changed a bit, no longer a kid who just plays wow day in and out. Hence I became semi-hardcore.

I have seen everything in WoW being buffed and nerfed all the way back to Vanilla, so ye I know what I am talking about.

Maybe a silly thing to say, how many server firsts have you gotten and how many hardmodes have you done during that content "patch" without overgearing it from new content.
I personally, have done most of them - if I am missing some it means I took a WoW break during that time or guild issues (things like summer sickness, as a result guild splitting, and other things...)
I played Warrior and a Warlock, my 2 main characters - been playing from Vanilla, never rerolled or anything.
When I was still playing a lot (not working in shifts), always server firsts or server seconds.
Even managed to get server first level 80 Warlock haha.

You are wrong about difficulty.
25 man is proven to be easier than 10 man - heroics that is.
Pretty sure there are some interviews or blogs on those top guild websites about it.
Thing is, you can make more mistakes on 25 man than on 10 man also less class dependent.

Here is one of such articles, http://www.paragon.fi/blogs/why-10-25-should-be-10-25
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/844 … 5man-raids

Last edited by Yinchie at 2011-02-10 19:33:13

#1376748 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 19:32:28 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

There isn't much to discuss other than that 10man are much easier than 25man. If your guild can't kill a boss in 25man that week for a clear, they will usually change to 10man. Where you have 10 reliable people to do the same thing that 25people can't.

It's just a fact, being in one of the top guild I see this every day

. A guild killing a 10man boss is atm seen as "the easy way out". Ensidia had to come up with excuses why they killed Al'Akir 10man and not 25man like paragon.
But this is how it is now, until blizzard learns to tune instances the same 10 / 25.

Last edited by Xiggiduna at 2011-02-10 19:33:04

#1376751 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 20:00:34 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

So basically one of the world top guilds are making articles about 25 man being harder and you dismiss it saying there is nothing to discuss?

rofl..
25 mans are easier than 10 mans...

#1376756 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 20:10:35 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Snuffsis wrote:

So basically one of the world top guilds are making articles about 25 man being harder and you dismiss it saying there is nothing to discuss?

rofl..
25 mans are easier than 10 mans...

I AM from one of the top world guilds and I am saying otherwise. What do you do now? Does your mind break and you stop breathing and thinking for yourself?

He's also saying "This post isn't really about tuning per se, and I don't have enough personal experience from 10-man heroics to really comment in-depth on that anyway"

He's assuming it's harder because you are less people and can't do what top guilds like to do best, adapt the best classes for a fight.

This has nothing to do how much easier the boss itself is than 25man version, he even said it himself "This post isn't really about tuning per se". Undertuned is the word. So while you are whining about 5man bosses, there is an entire bigger world that focuses on the rest of the game's pve. Get there and try it out for yourself.

The pope saying that religion is real doesn't make it so. Think for yourself for a minute.

#1376758 by DjStorm (Power User) at 2011-02-10 20:12:13 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

It`s only harder for the 10 man guilds that don`t have a rotation of classes to adapt to each fight. You need a specific comp in order to beat them on heroic, that`s all he`s saying.

#1376760 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 20:25:03 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

What DjStorm said. That article is about how you can't do what you want in a 10man with classes/setup.
World first guilds like to choose the best raid setup.

AND he ASSUMED it's harder because you can't do that. The boss itself is much easier and undertuned as shit.

Again, to dumb it down, in the article he ASSUMED that it would be harder to get a world first because you have a limited choise of setups in a 10man raid.

So to quote snuffis and fix it

rofl..
25 mans are harder than 10 mans..

#1376763 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 20:31:05 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

One basic thing is, do the math.
the HP of the bosses is increased by 250% in 25 man to account for the bigger group, however you still only need 2 tanks, so you get room for more dps and so it's alot easier to kill the bosses in 25 man than it is in 10 man, if you look at the numbers itself.

He only thing making 25man harder than 10 man is the avaliable room for movement. the rest is easier.

#1376770 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 20:43:46 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Oh god. Why do I bother : ) Even when explaining what the article was about, you don't want to be corrected.

Again, 25man IS harder than 10man. Belive it or not : ) if your daily concern is 5man heroic difficulty with randoms, then you probably shouldn't speak of whats harder.

#1376772 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 20:49:59 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Xiggiduna wrote:

It's funny that you don't seem to care at all what i'm trying to tell you either.
I'm not talking about the article, i'm talking about this in general.
Nowi if we look past the room issue in 25 mans, 10 mans are harder because you require more from each member, that is, more DPS and more healing, tanking remains the same since it's the same amount of tanks in both 10 and 25. They do need more TPS because of the extra DPS.
In 25 man you do not need as much from each member as you do in a 10 man, but they need to watch where they stand, this is the only thing making 25 man harder than 10 man. People can slack and stuff, just like it was back in Molten Core.

#1376775 by DjStorm (Power User) at 2011-02-10 20:56:06 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Ehm you need more TPS in 10 mans? Because of the extra DPS? What extra DPS, 25 mans have more since you can buff with everything. And people can slack in normal 25, good luck killing anything in heroic with people slacking.

#1376780 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 21:02:30 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

DjStorm wrote:

I meant with 25 man not 10 man.

But also, this whole discussion is pretty bad, because in the end it all boils down to what you actually prefer yourself.

#1376788 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 21:11:29 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Snuffsis wrote:

I'm not talking about the article, i'm talking about this in general.
Nowi if we look past the room issue in 25 mans,

There is now room issue in 25man. The only room issue is on Al'Akir, where paragon had 6members on another platform. Thats a good tactic. While ensidia went 10man instead for an easy kill.

Snuffsis wrote:

10 mans are harder because you require more from each member, that is, more DPS and more healing, tanking remains the same since it's the same amount of tanks in both 10 and 25. They do need more TPS because of the extra DPS.In 25 man you do not need as much from each member as you do in a 10 man, but they need to watch where they stand, this is the only thing making 25 man harder than 10 man. People can slack and stuff, just like it was back in Molten Core.

You must be trolling because this is..
Listen snuffis, this is what makes it so much easier. The thing is that 10man is so much easier because you have 10 RELIABLE people. You do not have another 15 people to worry about doing their job.

The bosses in 10man are undertuned. You are not doing anything "more" in 10man, as I'm assuming you are thinking. Just to give you an example, we had a boss left on tuseday night and we where whiping because people are randomly playing like shit. It's geting late and we dont wanna waste the heroic loot, so we switched to 10man, the people that really needed the loot stayed and oneshotted the boss.

And it's funny how you can say that people are slacking in 25mans, just like in molten core. The 40man tank and spank instance.

Its people that you that come up with these statements. Just like Yinchie, no fucking experiance whatsoever about the instances right now, but still commenting on it like they are the fucking baws : ).

Just to make it clear, nobody is slacking in 25man heroics atm : ). It's not happening. Bosses won't fall over this time around.

Snuffsis wrote:

But also, this whole discussion is pretty bad, because in the end it all boils down to what you actually prefer yourself.

What I'm saying is not what I prefer. I'm saying what is the fact. The fact is, 25man is harder than 10man. If you really want to klimb up the pve world rating, id advice anyone to do it in 10man. But the thing is, when people see you only killed it in 10man, that's when you wont be taken serious

. You might even get flamed for doing it the easy way.

#1376790 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 21:17:44 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Xiggiduna wrote:

Snuffsis wrote:

I'm not talking about the article, i'm talking about this in general.
Nowi if we look past the room issue in 25 mans,

There is now room issue in 25man. The only room issue is on Al'Akir, where paragon had 6members on another platform. Thats a good tactic. While ensidia went 10man instead for an easy kill.

Snuffsis wrote:

But also, this whole discussion is pretty bad, because in the end it all boils down to what you actually prefer yourself.

. You might even get flamed for doing it the easy way.

ANd i like that you assume that i have no experience...

Either way, it doesn't matter if it's 10 or 25, they should ALL BE RELIABLE NO MATTER WHAT, and it still requires more from each member in 25 than it does in 10 man.
And the members in your 25 man group were obviously slacking and being unfocused if you couldn't down a boss and had to do it in 1 0man, that meanst 10 of your people where focused were as the rest wasn't and thus slackers.
THe thing is, i'm basing my discussion on that there are equally reliable people in 10 as there are in 25 man, the only thing i'm differentiating between the two is how much is needed from each member in terms of dps, healing and tps done.
I myself am noticing this shit, we're currently doing a 25 man and the guys who isn't in my 10 man group suck so hard that we actually kept whiping on fucking MAGMAW. But if they were just as good as the 10 man group then the only thing we can differ them from each other is the numbers needed to kill the boss, and not players themself.

Last edited by Snuffsis at 2011-02-10 21:21:07

#1376796 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 21:34:16 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Snuffsis wrote:

You are missing the point about 10man. It has nothing to do with the players atm. It's the boss that is super undertuned, it's way easier than 25man version. Not talking about the players.
Those 10 people might aswell be the same 10 people that were playing bad and wiping us for not moving correctly

. But that doensn't mater, it's way easier to surivie those stupid mistakes, seeing the boss is undertuuuned and alot easier to kill. Then on the plus side it's that 10 people are more reliable than 25 people. That is just another point for the 10man side

Blizzard just haven't found the right balance between a 10man and a 25man. And I can't complain because that can't be an easy task.
Their instances before were always that 10man was easier than 25man, hence the worse loot. They don't have the experiance of balancing that shit out =) they are just now geting that experiance.

And I'm not judging you for saying "this guy from that guild said it". One would assume that person knows what hes talking about :p, but then again he had no experiance of it and was only talking about the setup.
And the Pope thinks that there was an Adam. But then again he wasn't there and has no experiance of meeting an adam

(can't belive I just used that )

#1376798 by Snuffsis (Power User) at 2011-02-10 21:37:43 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Xiggiduna wrote:

Snuffsis wrote:

(can't belive I just used that )

I'm not even using Paragon as an argument...
I give up, ecause you really don't seem to read my posts.

#1376804 by Xiggiduna (User) at 2011-02-10 21:49:57 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Snuffsis wrote:

I'm not even using Paragon as an argument...
I give up, ecause you really don't seem to read my posts.

We'll you keep editing it.

All in all, 25man is harder than 10man atm due to alot of different factors to every encounter. : ) It's not based on my point of view of raiding, it's not based on your point of view and experiance from raiding. It's based on all the facts that are out from all of the top 50 world guilds right now.

If you are in the race, or follow it, you will notice whats going on. Lots of guilds had to kill a few bosses in the start in 10man to catch up in the boss kill ratings. I think Ensidia did all 3 first bosses they killed on 10man. This was looked down on and they were called a "unserious 10man guild".

This is what it is. IF for some reason someone from a high end guild would say that 10man is harder. (Paragon guy was talking about a way different thing, aka the setup of a world first)
He probably killed lots of shit in 10man that was to hard on 25man and doesn't want to look bad: ). This is just how it looks now in the progress area. Like it or not

#1376850 by Tjosan (Power User) at 2011-02-11 02:37:18 (2 years ago) - [Quote] - [Report]

Strange, when I played (not playing anymore) in Wotlk everyone claimed (and also as I experienced) that 25man was easier because you could stack on the dps.